Date: 2017-04-04 01:57 am (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
Congrats to that panel of !YouTube for dating this.

Date: 2017-04-04 02:06 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
This was a *really* underrated run.

Date: 2017-04-04 02:45 am (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
It was also a really uneven, underperforming run. They took a great concept and naturally managed to screw it horribly.

Date: 2017-04-04 02:54 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
I disagree. They brought in a bunch of interesting concepts and characters full of possibility, and the set-up in the final issue, basically turning them into "Planetary in the New DC," was especially ripe with potential.

Date: 2017-04-04 03:09 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Though with the issue that having a major high-powered secret team that dealt with high-powered threat undermined the JL's perceived competence somewhat.

Date: 2017-04-04 03:43 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] locuatico
I think Linkara pointed out that it was ridiculous how many secret organizations there were at the start of the Nu52.

Date: 2017-04-04 07:37 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
even in Rebirth there's way to many conspiracies

Date: 2017-04-05 04:40 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
A holdover from Wildstorm, which was conspiracy central... and it just didn't work as well with the nu52 or the presence of the World's Greatest Detective on the world's most premier superhero team.

Date: 2017-04-04 11:16 am (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
Exactly. Like, where were these guys when Darkseid first attacked Earth? And I thought placing the Martian Manhunter on this team rather than the Justice League was a huge mistake (As an aside, I thought the idea that the Justice League went five years without a change of lineup was pretty stupid too.).

Date: 2017-04-04 12:51 pm (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
How is that different from any major crisis? You can always ask "Where are the Titans/the JSA/whoever"? Same thing with Marvel. "Where were the Avengers when Galactus first attacked Earth?" This is just one of those built-in holes you have to ignore when reading the big shared universes.

Date: 2017-04-04 01:35 pm (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
Yeah, but why weren't the Avengers showing up to try to break the forcefield?

It wouldn't be the Authority* without monumental arrogance. :)

* Yeah, yeah, "Stormwatch." Same difference.

Date: 2017-04-04 04:44 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
I get where you are coming from, but I don't think that argument works here. At the time Darkseid attacked there was no Justice League: only Stormwatch defended Earth. So you're saying that Earth's only line of defense against alien invasion was...where?

It's utterly sloppy writing and editing on the part of Dan Didio, who was scrambling around trying to churn out 52 comics without any thought to how they would be associated with one another. Hell, they re-wrote lines of dialogue when the Teen Titans got put into trade paperbacks; originally it was implied there had been other TT teams, but when the trade came out they nixed it.

So no, I don't buy your argument where Stormwatch/Darkseid is concerned. As for as Stormwatch knew they would have been the only people who could fight the forces of Apokolypse.

Date: 2017-04-05 01:32 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
There was no Justice League at the time but there were superheroes. Superman had been around for... I think it was supposed to be five years?

But I see what you're getting at. I just don't see how it makes any real difference. The fact that other teams exist doesn't make something like the JLA not getting involved in the JSA's latest big conflict more plausible. Readers aren't supposed to assume the JLA just figured, "Let's sit this one out and let those guys handle it," which would be decidedly unheroic, not to mention tasking a huge gamble on people's lives. Rather, we're supposed to just look the other way and ignore the shared universe.

Date: 2017-04-05 04:59 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
It depends on whether it's an on-the-spot crisis or a big one where people have time to respond.

Sometimes, "Where is X?" is answered by "The heroes of the titular book handled it before they got there." Other times, "By the time they'd get warning, it'd be too late."

Once a universe is busy enough, the answers could even be "they're busy handling other major threats/the baddies planned for it and sent distractions their way."

Or there is also, "The Justice League/Avengers are on it and they are known-great at handling stuff like that, *and* they have our phone number if they need backup."


What makes this one stand out is these are big protectors doing the 'we're more competent than the flashy capes who don't even notice we're here' thing.

"They're amateurs, we're professionals." They've got a hyperspace base to protect Earth from alien invasions. They wouldn't trust Superman and such to handle it. So... there's a bit more clashing than normal. Now, they could come up with an explanation not too hard, I mean it's *Darkseid*, him trapping them in hyperspace or something would be quite doable, but the lack of it being addressed adds to the feeling of disconnect.

Date: 2017-04-05 01:10 pm (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
Yeah, you see some of those handwaves from time to time, but I don't think they're ever really convincing over the long term.

"There wasn't time to respond" doesn't really fly in a world with super-speeders and teleportation.

"They're busy with other threats" makes the universe seem like some apocalyptic hellhole, where at any given time there must be three/four major threats to humanity at once. The people would have to be walking wounded in terms of trauma. Think the Cold War fear of nuclear attacks but greater because the nukes are actually flying, only they get intercepted. That's not really how I want my superhero universes to be.

Plus, if you posit in an issue of JSA that the JLA can't help against the Injustice Society because they're busy with Starro, that raises the questions of why the JSA, before the Injustice Society arrived, weren't helping the JLA against Starro. The only way it works is if you assume both threats coincidentally arose at the same time, and what are the chances of that?

"Team X already has it covered" is hindered by the way writers, for the sake of drama, usually have the adventures be close calls. In most stories, the lead does not clearly have it handled so much as narrowly snatch victory from defeat's jaws. As in, not the sort of danger level where other heroes would just be comfortable letting the protagonist(s) fight solo.

Bottom line, there's only two options if you aren't willing to look the other way with shared universes: Either you spend valuable page space handwaving why other heroes aren't getting involved every single time you write a major crisis (and even then it'll run into the problems I mentioned above), or you deliberately tone down the stories so there are never crises big enough to raise the issue. I doubt anyone wants either of those for a book like JLA. Better to just look the other way.

In this specific instance, I'd say it'd only be a disconnect if Stormwatch had actually appeared in the JLA story. Then an explanation demands itself. Otherwise, it's out of sight, out of mind. I don't need it accounted for, any more than I'd need a grim 'n' gritty Batman story where he's trying to solve a grisly murder to explain why he doesn't just have Booster Gold look through time to see whodunnit. Any such Booster reference would be an intrusion that weakens the story.
Edited Date: 2017-04-05 01:17 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-04-05 02:42 am (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
Five years without any character evolution whatsoever. Johns et al wanted to have their cake (not having to build an entire universe from scratch) and eat it too (a completely new Justice League).

Their solution, though, of simply declaring that half a decade passed without anything important happening, in a genre where line-up and costume changes are a constant, was impossible to take seriously. Then there's character stuff like Diana and Clark flirting like they've only just met, Cyborg adjusting to his new body as though he hasn't spent nearly a quarter of his life that way, etc.

Date: 2017-04-04 04:03 am (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
Yeah, well, I bailed after Starlin came on board and all of a sudden we were in another timeline where the team I'd been reading about had never existed. I didn't have the patience to stick around to see when it would be fixed.

Instead, we had the conceit of Martian Manhunter secretly being part of the team while also secretly being the member of the Justice League no one remembered because he erased their memories of him, and Harry Tanner going bad, and Apollo and Midnighter's relationship starting from scratch and them not even wanting to -be- there...

It just felt like Paul Cornell, a good writer, had some nice ideas but they never fully came together properly in the time he was on the title, and it didn't fully mesh with the New 52, and even the link to Demon Knights never reached its full potential. (I miss Demon Knights, that was a fun, weird series.)

It didn't help that Warren Ellis set a really high bar with the original Stormwatch and Authority before Wildstorm went completely haywire and nuked their own universe into a post-apocalyptic nightmare.

Date: 2017-04-04 12:52 pm (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
Again, by "run," I meant Cornell's run. Not any of the stuff that came after.

Date: 2017-04-05 02:58 am (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
I disagree. They brought in a bunch of interesting concepts and characters full of possibility, and the set-up in the final issue, basically turning them into "Planetary in the New DC," was especially ripe with potential.

That's the problem, though. It had interesting concepts that were never fleshed out. It had characters full of possibility, but except for Steve Orlando with Midnighter and Apollo, that possibility was never realized. The set-up in the final issue of Cornell's run was ripe with potential, but it was allowed to die on the vine.

In some ways, it's worse when a series wastes its potential than when it just plain sucks. Voodoo or Ravagers were never going to be good. Stormwatch could have been great.

Date: 2017-04-05 04:42 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
Again, I was specifically talking about Cornell's run, not the volume as a whole.

Date: 2017-04-05 05:13 am (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
Other than mentioning what Steve Orlando would be doing with the characters later, so am I. Cornell is a great writer, but this wasn't his best work (probably due to editorial constraints).

Date: 2017-04-05 05:40 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
I don't fault it for not fulfilling the potential it set up any more than I fault a TV pilot that wasn't picked up for the lack of further episodes. That's how I see his arc -- basically one big pilot. He set up something really cool, then other writers dropped the ball.

Date: 2017-04-05 09:24 am (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
A pilot...?

**checks Wikipedia**

Ah, I see. I forgot Cornell left after 8 issues and was replaced by Peter Milligan, and was counting everything pre-Starlin as his.

Date: 2017-04-04 02:58 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] locuatico
I think Conell left the title early, too?

Date: 2017-04-04 03:01 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
To be clear, by "run" I meant Cornell's.

Date: 2017-04-04 03:21 am (UTC)
lyricalswagger: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lyricalswagger
to me it felt like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too -- they were rushing fast, assuming some points like the existence of Jenny Quantum, while for the first time having Apollo and Midnighter meet.

The Harry Tanner character meant nothing to me, so him turning evil or being possessed or whatever did not resonate. i didn't know most of these characters, either due to being rebooted or them being new.

I got several issues of this and then had to give up. By that time I was hoping Stormwatch would turn into the Authority in the same way as before -- everyone dying in someone else's crossover.

Date: 2017-04-04 03:42 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
Your main issues seem to be the dissonance between this version and the original. I treated it as a new series, dropping all preconceptions and assumptions based off the previous version. It's really enjoyable in that mindset.

Date: 2017-04-04 05:27 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Not bad, but.. Really, really symptomatic of DC not knowing what the fuck they were doing at the start of the New52 and/or wanting to cram every last little thing in there.

I'm kind-of glad they've separated Wildstorm from the DCU again, to some extent.

Date: 2017-04-04 12:22 pm (UTC)
an_idol_mind: (Default)
From: [personal profile] an_idol_mind
Not bad, but.. Really, really symptomatic of DC not knowing what the fuck they were doing at the start of the New52 and/or wanting to cram every last little thing in there.

I'm really left feeling that the New 52 (or, for that matter, the post-Crisis era) could have been quite awesome if DC had put some long-term effort in and made sure everybody was on the same page as to what had happened already/what the new universe was trying to accomplish.

Date: 2017-04-04 01:30 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jmacq1
The biggest thing for me is that if you're going to merge Wildstorm with the DCU, you kind of have to allow Wildstorm to take priority in some areas or it just doesn't work, and that also means that the DCU as a whole becomes a significantly darker place.

Instead it became a failed exercise in forcing the more popular Wildstorm characters into a variation on the DCU.

Date: 2017-04-04 05:14 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Bingo. I don't think merging WS and DC works at all. Crossovers are fine, I liked the Superman/Majestic stuff, but there has to be some acknowledgement of the.. Maturity of the Wildstorm line - albeit maturity turned to crassness under lesser writers - and I don't think DC can handle that. It just turns to the same optimism turned to shit that gave us Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis, teen superheroes being tortured, so on, with none of the... Craft or finesse that the best WS writers had.

Date: 2017-04-04 09:12 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
It still amuses me that J'onn's expression on the cover is a weary eye roll. "Ugh. I bust my balls for H'ronnmeer-knows-how-long, I get literally lit on fire and brought back as a zombie, and this is all I can book? Note to self: pick better agents."

Date: 2017-04-04 11:40 pm (UTC)
zylly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zylly
J'onn during the entirety of the nu52 has largely been disappointing, with the possibly exception of a couple Justice League America issues and maybe the first two arcs in Justice League United.

And then there was his solo-series, which made... negative sense.

He's been around since before Barry. He deserves better.

Date: 2017-04-05 01:34 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
What didn't make sense about his solo series? I thought it was decent.

Date: 2017-04-05 01:42 am (UTC)
zylly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zylly
I did like Mr. Biscuits.

But I really struggled to understand what was going on throughout. It may have simple been having a month gap between each issue and a large comic pull that reduced its sense level for me.

I know there was something about ancient Martian blood magic and an older version of Mars and J'onn being some kind of bioweapon... but that's about as much as my brain let me comprehend.

Date: 2017-04-04 07:56 pm (UTC)
goattoucher: (Zillapalm)
From: [personal profile] goattoucher
Can I just say how boring the whole "We're netter than superheroes: They're amateurs. We're professionals." thing is? In the original comics, what made them "better" than everyone else was their willingness to kill, in brutal, horrible ways, without remorse or sentiment. Ways that would make them downright villainous in other continuities. The grim n' grittiest of the grim n' gritty.

And they thought this would translate to the DC mainstream? "We sat back when Darkseid attacked and handled the -real- problems? "

Hard pass.

Date: 2017-04-04 11:54 pm (UTC)
thatnickguy: Oreo-lovin' Martian (Default)
From: [personal profile] thatnickguy
I'll say this until the heat death of the universe:

Midnighter's chin spike is the stupidest thing ever. Really, I hated his costume as a whole. His original outfit was great. It was simple, modern, and suited the character. I never thought this costume worked for him.

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