Date: 2017-04-19 05:23 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
You know, Steve, Sin and Crossbones have all seen the Red Skull die before, i'm surprised they are accepting this death at face value.

Date: 2017-04-19 05:27 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
There's a page with his dead body with his brains coming out of his skull. He's dead until another backup clone arrives.

Date: 2017-04-19 05:51 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
And Steve also previously saw him get shot in the head and the Red Skull came back from that, what's your point?

My point is that they've all literally seem come back from the dead, not fake his death, but straight up die and come back. So it's weird that they think this is the end of that. They should know better.

And death by falling is tame compared to his previous deaths.
Edited Date: 2017-04-19 05:53 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-04-19 06:44 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
And Steve also previously saw him get shot in the head and the Red Skull came back from that, what's your point?

So what alternative is there at this point? Bring the corpse up, cremate it, and flush the ashes down the toilet? When should Steve move along with his master plan and stop worrying about the corpse whose brains are leaking out on the rocks?

Date: 2017-04-20 12:10 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
You joke, but burning the body wouldn't be a bad idea.

Date: 2017-04-19 07:01 pm (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
To be fair, the returns of the Red Skull from explicit death have either involved Arnim Zola or a Cosmic Cube.

This Skull didn't have either of those to count on when he went.

Date: 2017-04-19 08:08 pm (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
He does have a sentient Cosmic Cube who still still thinks of him as being like her dad, so there's one obvious resurrection method.

Date: 2017-04-19 09:31 pm (UTC)
flint_marko: (Default)
From: [personal profile] flint_marko
That doesn't seem too likely after this week's Thunderbolts.

Date: 2017-04-19 11:56 pm (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
Haven't been reading Thunderbolts, honestly. The voices felt off and the art gives me bad '90s flashbacks. What happened?

Date: 2017-04-20 02:54 am (UTC)
stolisomancer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stolisomancer
Zemo showed up at the 'Bolts' base with the Masters of Evil. Moonstone and Fixer threw in with him, Atlas did as well but may be faking it, Songbird is stuck in the Arctic, Mach-9 might be but probably isn't dead, and Zemo stuck Kobik in a machine that was intended to remove her sentience and turn her into a "normal" Cosmic Cube. It blew up and scattered pieces of Cube hither and yon, all but one of which were apparently easily recovered.

Date: 2017-04-20 06:09 am (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
That's it? Energy beings blow up all the time. That does remove an easy fix for the heroes to stop Secret Empire, but Kobik is only out of the picture until the writers decide she's back.

Date: 2017-04-20 03:17 pm (UTC)
flint_marko: (Default)
From: [personal profile] flint_marko
You can say that about any character who's gone, but as of right now there's no Kobik to bring him back.

And while I'm sure we'll get a Red Skull back eventually, I don't think it'll be until Secret Empire has been over for a bit, and it'll either be a new character or the original who was killed in CA: Reborn.

Date: 2017-04-20 04:38 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
hell, getting it fixed up will probably be the fix to Secret Empire

Date: 2017-04-21 06:02 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Selvig also made so Kobik could come back.

Date: 2017-04-20 04:32 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
But then in this week's Captain America: Steve Rogers, Selvig made it so Kobik could come back.

Date: 2017-04-21 01:11 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Ghost scoops up Songbird, and yeah, Selvig makes it so Kobik could come back (SIGH) right before he's shot IIRC.

Date: 2017-04-21 06:00 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Nah, Ghost scoops up Jolt, Songbird walks away on her own.

Date: 2017-04-21 08:40 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
//facepalm

I blame the art.

Date: 2017-04-20 12:09 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Selvig did give her a chance to reform again, so it doesn't seem like she's gone for good.

They also need her to set everything right anyway.

Date: 2017-04-20 03:04 pm (UTC)
flint_marko: (Default)
From: [personal profile] flint_marko
If she's going to fix things, that would probably mean she'd have realized HYDRA is wrong and wouldn't want to bring back the Skull.

Date: 2017-04-20 04:30 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
That depends on the order of events.

It wouldn't be an issue if first she brings back Skull, then realizes Hydra are actually evil.

Date: 2017-04-20 12:08 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Kobik does see Red Skull as a father figure, so if she reforms, she might bring him back.

Date: 2017-04-19 05:29 pm (UTC)
lordultimus: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lordultimus
Hell, isn't this just a clone of the still currently dead Red Skull?

(Not that I think anyone at Marvel remembers that fact...)

Date: 2017-04-19 05:56 pm (UTC)
mizerous: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mizerous
Will the real Red Skull please stand up?

Date: 2017-04-20 10:23 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Cue re-enactment of THAT scene in Spartacus, with a variation;

"Clone here"

"Alternate timeline leftover"

"Another clone"

"Evil twin"
"Psst... HE was the evil twin..."
"Oh right, yeah... Umm... Morally ambiguous twin"

"Android"

"Guess what! Clone! Zola gave discount for quantity"

"Cyborg"

"Future self"

"Past self... oh who am I kidding. Clone!"

Date: 2017-04-20 03:05 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
He's a clone of the Skull from the 60's, as I recall? Back when the Skull was still very much willing to throw in with Hydra. The previous version that had been killed off recently was a long-term one who had possessed Lukin, during Brubaker's run, and seemed more self-centred, declaring himself 'bigger than fascism'; he proceeded to die after getting stuck in a giant-size Zola body.

I think Remender actively remembered the above when bringing this Skull into play, given the older version of the Skull was very much deader than dead.. Almost like Brubaker were trying to coerce them to do something new.

Date: 2017-04-19 05:37 pm (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
Cap talking about how the Skull took and twisted and poisoned his purpose, then throwing him out the window and punctuating it with a " loyal to nothing except the dream " echo.

Very nicely done.

Date: 2017-04-19 08:17 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
I'm surprised that there's no mention about "What everyone thought I did to Sam Wilson, I really did to you!"

Yes, I've posted how the Red Skull didn't "create" a new Sam Wilson, he set Sam free. Then Nick Spencer did some sort of "Sam was never really Snap Wilson because Shut Up."

Date: 2017-04-19 09:27 pm (UTC)
flint_marko: (Default)
From: [personal profile] flint_marko
That was Remender.

Date: 2017-04-20 03:14 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
My mistake.

Date: 2017-04-20 01:42 pm (UTC)
mesmiranda: (jump)
From: [personal profile] mesmiranda
I can't tell if this is the beginning of the backpedalling on "oh, Steve wasn't REALLY a Nazi" or what.

Date: 2017-04-20 03:24 pm (UTC)
mesmiranda: (top hat)
From: [personal profile] mesmiranda
Really? Because the founders were Nazis, and the inner circle were Nazis, and the slogan and the salute are a riff on "Heil Hitler", and...

Date: 2017-04-20 04:00 pm (UTC)
deepspaceartist: Kamen Rider Decade (Decade)
From: [personal profile] deepspaceartist
Not originally. All those were only added after the writers wanted to retcon them into being Captain America villains instead of Nick Fury and SHIELD villains. For their first bunch of years they were just standard spy thriller villains. It's original founder was just some random businessman named Arnold Brown. The Nazi stuff had just been retconned in and out ever since.

Date: 2017-04-20 04:43 pm (UTC)
mesmiranda: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mesmiranda
I looked it up on Wikipedia and you're correct, my apologies. Marvel has been associating them pretty heavily with Nazis for decades, though, longer than lots of comic book readers have been alive, and it doesn't seem fair to jettison that to save face over editorial decisions.

Date: 2017-04-20 05:05 pm (UTC)
deepspaceartist: Kamen Rider Decade (Decade)
From: [personal profile] deepspaceartist
I don't know if I'd call it jettisoning, though. It seems to me that Spencer is trying to set up Nazi Hydra and Ancient Cult Hydra as seperate entities, while maintaining both as being evil. So you've got the Red Skulls racist, fascist assholes vs. Hydra Steve's non-racist but still fascist assholes. Hydra Steve hasn't been shown to be a racist or a bigot, it's just that where Real Steve whould call out bigots and righteously punch them, Hydra Steve will instead manipulate them to his own ends then stab them in the back.

Date: 2017-04-21 01:13 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Marvel has been associating them pretty heavily with Nazis for decades, though, longer than lots of comic book readers have been alive, and it doesn't seem fair to jettison that to save face over editorial decisions.

Amen.

Also, "They're not Nazis, they're fascists!" is....not REALLY BETTER.

Date: 2017-04-21 05:59 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
It depended on the faction though, since there have been multiple Hydra groups with different leaders with different goals.

That being said, the best known version of Hydra right now is the one people saw in the films, which is the one where they were a Nazi science division.

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