Date: 2017-04-28 05:27 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
This does remind me of a problem with 'the villain has crossed bigger lines and now really deserves to be eliminated' (either killed or at least *really* imprisoned, with much more effort put in to tracking them down than normal to make sure it's the case) stories like Avengers Arena.

It raises the profile of the villains, and thus we see them in action not that long later, like now.

Date: 2017-04-28 05:42 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Yeah, Arcade really should have been put in a box for about ten years. I can understand the appeal of the Murderworld gimmick, but the character himself is.. Well, Marvel botched him superhard. Every hero in the world should have come down on him like a ton of bricks.

Date: 2017-04-28 06:36 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
And it's not even Arena itself or the immediate followup in Underworld (which both took him seriously and assumed him to be dead), but that that got brushed aside so fast.

This kind of thing happens a lot, really. After World War Hulk, aka "Everyone fights Hulk," Banner was back in I think a year. In DC's WW3 where Black Adam did similar and was depowered and it was treated as a huge deal, I think he was repowered in half a year. Also, the whole Dr. Light thing.

"Have a character cross a line, and then be defeated in a huge way when the hammer is dropped on them as a result," has a lower shelflife than either comic death or event status quos.

Date: 2017-04-28 03:22 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
-Banner was back in I think a year-
Less, actually.

The first issue of Hulk had him alive and dandy, because... Loeb.

Date: 2017-04-28 05:11 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Of course he was, Banner wasn't dead. You also forget that Loeb's book depowered him.

Banner didn't die at the end of WWH, so what are you talking about?

Also, Banner was put on the shelf for awhile because of Loeb. This was when Red Hulk was introduced after all.

Banner didn't show up again until Greg Pak came back to Incredible Hulk, while Loeb continued writing "Hulk" staring Red Hulk.

And even then, Pak was writing a Hulkless Banner hanging out with his Son Skaar.
Edited Date: 2017-04-28 05:21 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-04-28 07:28 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
-You also forget that Loeb's book depowered him-

Banner returned after being "killed" at the end of WWH. He "returned" in Hulk issue 1. And turned out to still be the Hulk within a few issues.
Now, if you're referring to his getting depowered for issue 600... nobody actually mentioned being depowered at all anyway.

Date: 2017-04-28 11:07 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Except he didn't "return after being killed", he wasn't killed at the end of World War Hulk at all. I have the book right in front of me. He wasn't killed. They make it pretty clear. I mean, all Stark's sats did was turn Hulk back into Banner.

He was imprisoned at the end of WWH and when Loeb's book starts, Banner is still in his cell.

So he didn't "return", he never left. You can say what you want about Loeb's run, but he didn't ignore continuity and his book's first issue had Banner still in his cell in the Mojave desert.

So it wasn't "because Loeb" it was "Because Banner was still alive and imprisoned as it was established at the end of WWH".

Banner has only died two times. In Jason Aaron's Incredible Hulk and in Civil War 2.
Edited Date: 2017-04-28 11:44 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-04-28 05:17 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
What are you talking about? Why wouldn't Banner be back? He didn't die at the end of World War Hulk, he was imprisoned. What are you talking about?

He wasn't the Hulk for a good long while, this was the Red Hulk era, remember?

And no, Undercover didn't take Arcade seriously. The other villains still didn't think much of him, remember? Zemo even pointed out that the true genius was the tech he used for his new Murderwolrd and that all came from Coriander. Which is why he offered her a spot on his team.

Edited Date: 2017-04-28 05:26 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-04-29 01:20 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Banner was imprisoned for a pretty short time for being the center point of a fight with nigh everyone, is my point. Death, imprisonment, depowerment, whatever- fighting everyone and losing in a big event really doesn't come with much consequences.

He was back by the end of the first Red Hulk story.

Date: 2017-04-29 04:37 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
It's not like they let him out, he escaped.

And it's not like he was buddy buddy with any of the heroes at that time, most of them didn't really trust him.

Date: 2017-04-28 10:57 am (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
We may not agree on everything, but a million times yes to what you said.

Date: 2017-04-28 12:25 pm (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
That falls into the 'best not to look to hard at all this or it all comes crashing down' aspect of comics. I mean, the Punisher has murdered the population of some small countries in comics by this point, but the Avengers and others never seem to get around to catching and detaining him.

Arcade is particularly difficult to absorb as a villain given him massive requirement for infrastructure. He's fun as hell (though I haven't read Avengers Arena, so maybe less so in some versions), but his continual return is something that's best left unexamined as often as not, IMHO.

Date: 2017-04-28 05:30 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Except, people thought Arcade was dead. No one is going to look for a dead man.

Date: 2017-04-29 03:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] daningram.insanejournal.com
In fairness, Arcade was established as rich long before he became a hired killer. His million dollar fee was meant to offset costs, not cover them.

Honestly, I'm at a loss as to how writers allowed him to become a joke. His whole thing is that he controls a tailor made environment designed to kill the protagonist. That should always be 'skin of your teeth' survival

Date: 2017-04-29 04:50 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] donnblake
Especially since the classic Arcade plot seems to go:

1. Use my brilliance as a hitman and my array of gadgets to neutralize and capture my opponents, rendering them at my mercy.

2. Just killing them would be boring, though, so time to run them through a murder carnival.

He always was supposed to be *very* good at what he did, which is why he got bored and started A) handicapping himself and B) going after capes.

Date: 2017-04-28 05:09 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Except they did bench him after Avengers Undercover, he didn't return until his appearance in Gwenpool. Like it was mentioned in USAvengers, people thought Arcade was dead.

Date: 2017-04-28 05:13 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Except it had actually been a good long time since we last saw Arcade, he only returned recently in Gwenpool.

After Avengers Undercover, everyone thought Arcade was dead. I'm not sure what you are complaining about here.

Date: 2017-04-29 01:53 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Avengers Undercover only ended two years ago, from there to Gwenpool is *less* time than normal between his appearances.

And once he reappears and it's revealed he's not dead, you'd expect everyone to come down on him because they are still mad at him.

Date: 2017-04-29 04:44 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Well, three years ago. The book ended in 2014.

And i get what you mean, but the heroes have had lot going on right now. The stuff with Ulysses, Secret Empire, etc. Plus right now the only ones that know Arcade is still alive are Gwenpool(Plus her Crew), Deadpool and Elektra.

Date: 2017-05-02 07:11 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] strejdaking
He already appeared before in Hellcat. Technically even before that in Secret Wars, but that's not really what you are talking about.

Date: 2017-05-03 12:47 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Crap, right. That was the issue Patsy and Jen went to an amusement part, right?

And Secret Wars is an AU, so it probably wasn't the same Arcade. But but he showed up in Ghost Racers and Planet Hulk that had Gladiator Steve Rogers, yeah?

Date: 2017-05-02 11:22 pm (UTC)
majingojira: (Kyon Sad)
From: [personal profile] majingojira
I don't blame you for not finishing that series. It ended with the reveal that his death was faked because . . .

Zemo had a plan, and it in no way gained anything from having Arcade alive.

I cannot justify that in story other than to get the kids out of their trouble because Dennis Hopeless as a writer repeatedly denies his characters agency.

Date: 2017-05-03 12:44 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
You know what they say about assuming things, right? I did finish the book and the way it ended had Arcade presumed dead again. He wasn't used until he showed up in Gwenpool recently.

And I don't think i asked you about your opinion on Hopeless as a writer, no offense. Please stay on topic.
Edited Date: 2017-05-03 12:48 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-05-03 01:01 pm (UTC)
majingojira: (He Will Eat You Right Now)
From: [personal profile] majingojira
Except for the part where Arcade appears in front of everyone in Cammi's Hijacking of Zemo's Highjacking of Zemo's signal over-rider. Ya know, he did a little dance and sang "all I do is win" until Cammi, Batman as written by THAT sort of Batman fan, smacked him down.

And then he ends up tied to the front of Zemo's new super stealth Hellicarrier in a full looney toons moment as if doing that would somehow give the audience emotional satisfaction for all the crap he just pulled.

Otherwise, yeah, he was thought to be dead, but it's a massive plot point that the kids killed a fake Arcade in order to clear them of the murder charge that not even Texas would convict them on.

Without Arcade being KNOWN to be alive (at least by SHIELD), the kids would have gone right back to SHIELD cells rather than "emotionally empty vacation on a lake" ending we got.

. . .

God, Undercover was terrible.

So yeah, twice over, Arcade is known to be alive. I doubt Wikipedia updated that when the writer of Hellcat was doing her research, but that just goes to show how the Gail Simone method of comic research is better than Wikipedia (Hell, anything's better than 'just Wikipedia').

Date: 2017-05-03 01:06 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
And after being tied up in to Zemo's Helicarrier, no one saw him for a long time, to the point that in USAvengers it's said that everyone just thinks he's dead.

And obviously, that second "death" wouldn't be blamed on the kids.

And we aren't talking about what you thought of Undercover either.

Date: 2017-05-03 01:16 pm (UTC)
majingojira: (WTF Guyver)
From: [personal profile] majingojira
When and where did U.S. Agent talk about Arcade?

Between the end of Dark Avengers and his re-appearance in Captain America: Sam Wilson, I know of no such appearance he has had, and none of those would allow for Arcade to be mentioned.

So please, tell me where this happened?

Or provide scans of it to solidify your point.

But keep in mind the "Modern comic writers think Wikipedia is a valid primary research tool" remains a thing that could undermine it.

Also; unsolicited opinions about comics!

Date: 2017-05-03 01:37 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
USAVENGERS #3 Where we learn that the Gold Skull has been using Arcade's robots.

Date: 2017-05-03 01:56 pm (UTC)
majingojira: (I Reject Your Reality)
From: [personal profile] majingojira
Thank you.

I went and checked it out and . . . you're still kinda wrong. (and I can't believe I confused US Agent with the USAvengers! Boy is my face red!)

It's Sunspot who makes the statement, which is:

"[Arcade]'s an old friend. An international assassin who creates complex death traps -- and deadly games of chance. He plays to ease his own ennui. Currently missing, presumed dead."

Not exactly a slam dunk for 'everyone thinks Arcade is dead.'

Especially in a superhero universe where they are at least meta enough to know not everyone stays dead, villains doubly so.

But I suppose it just comes down to different textual reads.

Date: 2017-04-28 08:31 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] hybrid2
Did'nt she used to be competent?
What happened?

Date: 2017-04-28 08:48 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kd_the_movie
Elektra sure is talkative in this compared to her past depictions.

Her and Frank damn near have the same speech patterns: short sentences, only when necessary, and overtly blunt and grim :p

Date: 2017-04-28 09:28 am (UTC)
mistersandman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mistersandman
Yeah, this is why they made such a great couple in Thunderbolts.

Date: 2017-04-28 05:36 pm (UTC)
leoboiko: (Default)
From: [personal profile] leoboiko
I know Marvel of late has been presenting alternative versions of their heroes, and I'm very ok with that; but, after all the attempts at diversity, it feels weird that they'd replace Elektra Nachios with some other white brunette. Why, if you squint very, very hard, I'd go as far as saying that this featherweight teenager could be Elektra Nachios from some wacky, alternate Buffy-esque universe.

Date: 2017-05-02 11:20 pm (UTC)
majingojira: (Angry Monkey)
From: [personal profile] majingojira
Arcade is one of the most dangerously meta characters out there right now, mostly because some writers are simply not aware of how meta he is.

Every trap he creates, every game, every situation is a showcase of the writer's own creativity. If they are not creative, or intentionally uncreative, they drop the story's esteem, and thus the writer's as well.

Arcade IS the writer. And not everyone knows that.

And that's BEFORE that travesty Arena.

Now, now Arcade is literally toxic. Hell, the writer of Hellcat even complained in a tweet about him when she saw his profile on Wikipedia. She saw a fun villain with a goofy 60s Batman level aesthetic turned into something dark and serious.

And even she couldn't dig him out of the whole Arena/Undercover left him in, because that racist, sexist, ableist, contrived, agency-less idiocy left that big a stain on every character involved, and none more so than Arcade himself.

The really sad thing is, the civilians in this series got more pathos than every non-OC in Arena.

Sorry for the rant, but I have been holding that one back for a while. I probably would have picked this series up, but then I saw Arcade was the featured villain and noped right the hell out. He is literally toxic.

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