spider_man6: (Default)
[personal profile] spider_man6 posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Wonder Woman cover
So, DC has announced the next creative team for Wonder Woman. In September, #31 will mark the onset of James Robinson (Scarlet Witch, Squadron Supreme), Carlos Pagulyan (Deathstroke), and Emanuela Lupacchino (Superwoman). The new team will tackle the Rebirth mystery of Wonder Woman's secret brother Jason. By the looks of the cover, Giganta and Grail appeared to be involved in some capacity.

This could make for an interesting run. Robinson has done generally mixed work at DC, in my opinion, but his Marvel work seems pretty good. The two artists are also great. Will look at this with openness.
Tags: wonder woman

Date: 2017-06-19 09:58 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jgeils
I'd imagine James Robinson's highest profile DC work was on the Elseworlds LS, "The Golden Age", but I sure loved his work for Malibu's Ultraverse on "Firearm".

Date: 2017-06-20 11:37 am (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
I realize that Robinson's star has fallen a great deal over the years and he's been pretty inconsistent more recently, but...has his Starman run been so completely forgotten? I mean, it was typically regarded in the same breath as Gaiman's Sandman, back when it was on being published.

Date: 2017-06-20 01:44 pm (UTC)
thatnickguy: Oreo-lovin' Martian (Default)
From: [personal profile] thatnickguy
A friend of mine described Starman well: people who read it? It's unforgettable. People who haven't? It's wasn't high profile enough to remember in the long run,

Date: 2017-06-20 01:48 pm (UTC)
miss_abnormal: (Default)
From: [personal profile] miss_abnormal
I didn't read comic books in the '90s, but from what i've heard from older readers is that Starman has turned more into a cult classic than a regular classic like Sandman. Neil Gaiman's work might have also ended up overshadowing Starman.

The fact that writers have barely used Opal City and the characters within for anything after Starman ended might also be a factor. They couldn't use Jack Knight because Robinson didn't want them to (which I don't mind; Jack's superhero story ended, not every character needs to exist for eternity), Sue Dibny got killed off in Identity Crisis, Ralph Dibny got traumatized and then killed off in 52, Black Condor got killed off at some point, and nobody really thought about using the O'Dares, Hamilton Drew and Mikaal Tomas.

The only character that even sparingly appeared post-Starman (not including the times he was written by Robinson) was the Shade. He made two brief appearances in Geoff Johns' JSA and recently in Rebirth Flash. I remember that at some point Robinson mentioned that he left Opal City with a variety of characters to protect the city, and then came back to only find the Shade still living there.

And Opal City has ended up being more of a place that "exists" than a aesthetically-unique place in which things happen.

So, if all of this is happening for about 17 years, new readers will have nothing that even vaguely references Starman as a thing that happened once upon a time. And although Sandman characters have been sparingly used too, Neil Gaiman's continued success as a writer brings more readers that want to check out his previous work, including those in comic books.

Date: 2017-06-20 08:22 pm (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
Well, new readers will have *one* thing that references Starman, and that's Tony Harris's design for the Cosmic Staff. It's been basically unchanged ever since Jack passed it on to Stargirl, and it's appeared in animation, live action, and videogames, all still with the same essential details.

On the other hand, how many readers are going to recognize it as a reference? I don't know what Courtney's current origin is, but I doubt Jack and Ted are still in continuity.

Date: 2017-06-20 09:28 pm (UTC)
miss_abnormal: (Default)
From: [personal profile] miss_abnormal
Oh! I forgot about the Cosmic Staff.

But yeah, it has appeared continually, but it has done so without much explanation for its existence outside of Starman. There's been barely any reference to its origins post-Starman, and none at all post-Flashpoint considering that the entire Starman legacy doesn't exist (although I hope it comes back in Rebirth when the JSA re-appear).

I think Courtney's post-Flashpoint existence is one of those things that DC hopes nobody thinks about too hard, because without the Starman legacy and the Star-Spangled Kid legacy (along with Pat Dugan's existence) it doesn't make any sense, especially since, as far as I know, they never even bothered giving her a New-52 version of her origin. She was just "there" without much explanation.

Date: 2017-06-20 10:40 pm (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
Very true. The Cosmic Staff just seems to exist in a void, disconnnected from any of the background and history it used to have. It's a harsh irony for a comic all about legacies.

Date: 2017-06-19 10:17 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
Initial knee-jerk reaction:
Wonder Woman holding a sword. Cause for suspicion.
Giganta. Intriguing.
Grail. Sleepy time now.
"Wonder Woman's brother Jason". Somehow falling even further asleep.

After two minutes thought:
Nyyyeeaaah... can't exactly say this is filling me with any kind of confidence.
Okay, maybe now that Grail isn't written by Geoff Johns she might, might have an actual character, buuuuut...
None of this sounds like the sort of stuff that got me into Wonder Woman in the first place.
(Come for the retcons! Stay for the lesbian subtext, text and supertext!)

Especially that sword. Deeply distrustful of any depiction of Wonder Woman with a sword, regardless of actual quality.
And right after a whole run of Rucka emphasising Wonder Woman's role in trying to bring peace and love.

Plus, not too wild about Robinson. He's not awful (certain... executively mandated series aside) but... not exactly setting pants on fire.

Date: 2017-06-20 05:37 am (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
Grail? Who the heck is Grail?

*checks Google*

...well, I'm thinking I made the right choice abandoning Geoff John's Justice League, because "Daughter of Darksied and an Amazon assassin" sounds like a truly terrible OC.

Wise. Very wise.

Date: 2017-06-20 06:30 am (UTC)
blue_bolt: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blue_bolt
Black Hole Sue to the Anti-Rescue!

Re: Wise. Very wise.

Date: 2017-06-20 03:48 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
Black Hole Sue / won't you come / wash away the plot...

Date: 2017-06-19 10:20 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] long_silence
Robinson's latest Marvel work has left me feeling pretty bored.

Add in that awful twin brother male Amazon storyline and bringing back Grail? I have absolutely no hopes for this book.

Date: 2017-06-21 02:32 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I think his Marvel work was particularly bogged down by the whole nature of his 'DON'T YOU THINK JIM HAMMOND IS AWESOME?' approach, which.. No. I don't think he has any characters like that at DC, though, beyond the Shade, who actually is awesome.

Date: 2017-06-21 05:28 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] long_silence
Even before Jim Hammond got shoehorned into Fantastic Four that book was so boring. I honestly could not tell you anything that happened in that series because it was so forgettable.

Squadron Supreme bothered me because for a book made out of Incursion survivors there was a ton of Illuminati apologism. And nothing they did after killing Namor was interesting.

And his Scarlet Witch didn't even include Hammond but I'd say it was the worst. Between the latest retcons to her origin, the complete overhaul of her abilities and skills (she should not be the foremost expert on magic, she barely learned to control her own powers from Agatha she should not know the magic of every other culture), and the fact that she was completely isolated from her family and friends just made the book really weak. Robinson also said in interviews that Wanda didnt have a strong personality on her own or any good villains, and that just seems like a total misunderstansing of the character. King wrote a better Wanda in that one issue of Vision. Also what the heck is Woman's magic supposed to be?

Robinson has also had this tendency to create more international heroes. And I appreciate the attempt at diversity but the characters are always so flat and 2-dimensional. And there's such an obvious lack of research involved in their creation that they may as well be caricatures. No Japanese person would name themself Aoi Master. August Wu of the Coral Shore doesn't even mean anything, and shortening it to the Wu means even less. A German woman of color would not try to take the name Iron Cross back, the Nazis ruined it, it would be like an Indian character trying to reclaim the Swastika, too soon and its just not happening in our lifetime.

Sorry I've just been disappointed by Robinson a lot

Date: 2017-06-19 10:55 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Jason...? I hadn't heard of this character, do I even want to know?

Date: 2017-06-19 11:12 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] locuatico
He was revealed during "rebirth'" when she discovered she had a twin brother but none of that was mentioned during the Rucka Run.
Personally, as long as they don't say that temyscira hates him for being a boy and they were more than willing to raise him alongside Diana until whatever happened happened, I am at least willing to give it a chance

Date: 2017-06-19 11:32 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
A thing that strikes me is Rucka's run did say that the prior origin might've been false anyway, so I don't know how that works.

I don't know why I should be interesting in him and I'm somewhat worried they're going to waste the work Rucka did.

Date: 2017-06-20 04:07 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] long_silence
Rucka's run still has one final issue but iirc until now he hasn't actually gone into whether or not Diana has the clay origin or if Zeus is still her father. Other than Ares and his sons, the Greek gods have been taking a backseat to Diana's story.

But if they're bringing back this surprise twin brother storyline then Hippolyta must have had a natural birth.

Date: 2017-06-20 06:07 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Hm, I sense I'm going to end up owning the Rucka run TPBs and treating them as if they exist in a vacuum.

Date: 2017-06-20 12:15 pm (UTC)
thatnickguy: Oreo-lovin' Martian (Default)
From: [personal profile] thatnickguy
*Heavy Rain impression*

JASON!

Date: 2017-06-19 11:54 pm (UTC)
reveen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] reveen
Hey, DC? Can we talk? About swords?

Because that one right there has a real thin, kinda long blade, which isn't so good for a sword intended to really hack up the enemy good. Greek and Roman swords had short heavy blades, with leaflike designs or inwardly curved blades for a reason. Because that's the kind of sword you want to be using when fighting another guy with a really big shield in really close quarters.

Not that it's a serious issue or anything, but the total lack of giving a shit when it comes to depicting weapons in superhero comics is a pet peeve of mine.

Date: 2017-06-20 12:14 am (UTC)
miss_abnormal: (Default)
From: [personal profile] miss_abnormal
I'm...hmm.

I'm not sure what to think of this. One of my favorite comic book series is Starman, but that was written a long time ago and Robinson has had his failings too (although, admittedly, Cry for Justice and the errors in Earth-2 were mainly caused by editorial mandates). Furthermore, I can't remember a time in which Robinson wrote Earth-1/Main-Earth Wonder Woman, so I have no idea what's his idea of Diana as a character, along with his idea of the Amazons as a mythical civilization.

Date: 2017-06-20 04:53 am (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
I loved Starman and The Golden Age, but I can't think of anything else of his that I really liked.

Still, I'm willing to give this a shot.

Date: 2017-06-20 12:19 pm (UTC)
thatnickguy: Oreo-lovin' Martian (Default)
From: [personal profile] thatnickguy
A lot of people are bringing up Starman and comparing it with his later work. Which, given how great Starman was (and still is), it's a fair thing to discuss.

I think the reason Starman worked best is because it was largely his baby. It was the closest thing to a creator-owned project, where I don't think there were many editorial mandates. Plus, he essentially remade Star City to jive with the world he'd made. I think he had a LOT of creative control on the book largely because Starman isn't exactly a big name DC character.

Whereas everything he's done since then has been bigger-name titles and stuff he probably didn't have even remotely the same creative freedom or control.
Edited Date: 2017-06-20 12:20 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-06-20 01:17 pm (UTC)
miss_abnormal: (Default)
From: [personal profile] miss_abnormal
Yeah, thinking about it now, Starman was mainly composed of characters that he either 1) created or 2) were so vague in their personalities and background information for so long that Robinson could almost do anything with them at that point (best example would be the Shade, a character that post-Zero Hour might as well be Robinson's creation except in villain name, his top hat and cane, and the general concept of his powers). He even created Opal City (Star City is Green Arrow's city; Opal didn't exist before his Starman series).

But yeah, editorial mandates might be the one thing that holds him back (and now with the whole "Diana's secret long lost twin brother" having to happen).

Maybe Robinson might update Wonder Woman's villains? She unfortunately (for us readers) has a very small amount of recognizable and/or significant villains, so I guess Robinson could go semi-freely in that aspect. I guess.

Date: 2017-06-20 01:26 pm (UTC)
thatnickguy: Oreo-lovin' Martian (Default)
From: [personal profile] thatnickguy
Whoops, thank you for the correction on the city. For some reason, my brain was thinking "Star. Starman. Star City!"

Spot on point about the characters, too. Jack and David especially were totally new characters.

If I had any video-making talent, I'd love to do a video discussing Starman. Especially its theme of legacy and passing on the torch.
Edited Date: 2017-06-20 01:45 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-06-20 04:13 pm (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
Believe it or not, David wasn't a completely new character. He appeared in a single storyline in the previous Starman run, where he contested the then-Starman (I can't keep them straight, the one with the purple costume?) for the name, believing that it should rightfully be his by birthright.

But hardly a character who'd been fully fleshed out, yes.

Date: 2017-06-20 10:21 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Yeah, David showed up in the Will Payton /Starman run, fighting the Golden Age Mist, who got an upgrade to become "Nimbus".

Date: 2017-06-20 10:37 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
... that doesn't sound like much of an upgrade, frankly.

From "The Mist" to "The Rain Cloud".

(And that's assuming there's not Futurama fans around...)

Date: 2017-06-20 10:43 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
-She unfortunately (for us readers) has a very small amount of recognizable or significant villains-

Mainly because any time a writer tries establishing villains for her, most of them just get shoved off to the side by the next writer.
And if someone uses one of her villains outside Diana's titles, they're inevitably chumped, and chumped hard.

And she's got... Cheetah, Ares, Circe, Dr. Veronica Cale, Silver Swan, Dr. Poison, Dr. Cyber...

All things considered, that's not a shabby role call (ask a passer-by on the street how many Superman villains they can name).

Though it might also help if DC ever used any of those non-Ares villains in their non-comic media...

Date: 2017-06-21 12:20 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
I have a plan for if I ever get a comic run.

Try and hit an even mix of classics, made-and-forgotten villains, and a few new ones (expanding galleries is important, just like not discarding previous additions is). And even ones I don't really use, mention to establish their presence. Stuff like the Silver Swan being redeemed.

Date: 2017-06-20 03:28 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: (ask the questions)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
didn't Robinson do one of the better Supergirl arch's too? also Starman?

Date: 2017-06-20 03:50 pm (UTC)
cainofdreaming: b/w (Default)
From: [personal profile] cainofdreaming
Holy huge out of cut picture, Batman!

Also, that's not how you hold an axe.

Date: 2017-06-20 03:57 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
I've never really had a problem with Diana Using a sword. A sword can be used in more than one way. it's a tool. she is a warrior and that is one of her tools. it's not the first one she uses. but one she can if she has to.

Date: 2017-06-20 05:08 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] strejdaking
My problem is that they are not depicting the lasso at all. The cover for issue one at least had it on her belt. It's fine to have her with sword and shield, but the lasso is her iconic weapon, her not having it should MEAN something. It should a bit like Thor not having Mjormir.

Date: 2017-06-20 05:13 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
Preeettty sure she lost it recently, for reasons.
(It'll probably be back in a year or two, at most.)

Date: 2017-06-20 05:38 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
She left it behind on the boundary between the real world and Themyscira to keep Phobos and Deimos bound.

Date: 2017-06-20 06:19 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
huh. well I suppose that makes story sense... it is unbreakable.... but it's her greatest tool...

Date: 2017-06-20 07:24 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
Well, wouldn't that make for an interesting story hook, then?
Edited Date: 2017-06-20 07:25 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-06-20 05:25 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
oh. I can't see the image. it's just a black x. so I didn't even see that...

Date: 2017-06-21 12:22 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
The issue is the sword often gets associated with her more choppy-choppy-grrr takes and moments. The more diplomatic and redemption focused parts are almost always when she's carrying the lasso- even in the same runs.

The movie even plays this up with the role her sword plays in that.

Date: 2017-06-21 10:21 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
That deeply disappointed me in the movie, a sword not working on Ares (The God of War after all) makes perfect sense, but the reveal SHOULD have been that the Lasso of Truth was ALWAYS the Godkiller. (Note that they are both kept in the same chamber in the tower, so they are both equally well protected by the Amazons)

But that ties into my disappointment with the whole "child of Zeus" thing...

Date: 2017-06-20 04:59 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] strejdaking
Shouldn't image this big be under the cut?

Date: 2017-06-20 07:23 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
Wait, I thought the lady who wrote DC Super Hero Girls was writing this book?

Regardless, I'm glad to see a follow up to the events and characters of The Darkseid War. I just hope they avoid or at least navigate through the trap of 'Everything before this book was and is fake/not real/unimportant/going to be retconned away, this is the REAL Wonder Woman!' that almost every other run has fallen into.

Date: 2017-06-21 12:23 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
-Wait, I thought the lady who wrote DC Super Hero Girls was writing this book?-

I think she's doing one story between Rucka and this, and then this will be one story.

Dunno when the next longer term writer will be.

-I just hope they avoid or at least navigate through the trap of 'Everything before this book was and is fake/not real/unimportant/going to be retconned away, this is the REAL Wonder Woman!' that almost every other run has fallen into.-

Yes. Rucka just established a good status quo. *Use it*.

Mod Note!

Date: 2017-06-20 09:46 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: Mod Squad icon (Mod Squad)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Image outside the cut is WAAAAY too big.

Correct ASAP please.

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