laughing_tree: (Seaworth)
[personal profile] laughing_tree posting in [community profile] scans_daily

What’s the difference between a joke and a riddle? A joke is chaos; a riddle is order. -- Tom King

Date: 2017-07-05 01:35 am (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
A Gotham villain casually telling you the full name of one of your loved ones would be implicitly terrifying enough to make you do whatever they wanted.

Date: 2017-07-05 02:18 pm (UTC)
goattoucher: (Bueno)
From: [personal profile] goattoucher
That was a chilling scene. Well done!

Date: 2017-07-05 02:49 pm (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
It was truly amazing. Chills, this is how a Batman villain is suppose to work. Plot armor or "joker immunity".

Date: 2017-07-05 03:14 pm (UTC)
goattoucher: (Brimley)
From: [personal profile] goattoucher
Well, the Riddler was shot, but he didn't die. Writers can do just about whatever they want to these characters, so long as everything is reset to the status quo when the story arc is done.

So while this is a -great- scene, "Joker Immunity" is a specter that looms over all Batman comics, gradually sapping the tension from the stories.

Date: 2017-07-05 03:52 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] locuatico
this is a flashback, so we already knew everyone involved has full plot armor

Date: 2017-07-05 06:47 pm (UTC)
goattoucher: (Cyke)
From: [personal profile] goattoucher
True, but plot armor for legendary Batman villains is hardly unique to flashbacks.

Date: 2017-07-05 07:11 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] locuatico
But it is something pointless to complain about in a type of stories were plot armor is something inherent to.
It's like wondering if THIS version of Batman's origin the wayne's killer will shoot their little kid, too, when you already saw Bruce Wayne in present time, and then complaining about "plot Armor" when they survive.
Yes, they have Plot Armor, but you are the only one tricking yourself if you are surprised by characters alive in present time not dying (and never being brought back to life) in a flashback

Date: 2017-07-05 01:56 am (UTC)
thosefew: bored death (Default)
From: [personal profile] thosefew
Why do they ALL have daughters? Are they standard issue?

Date: 2017-07-05 03:08 am (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
They could also be wives, girlfriends, sisters, other female loved ones. Although yeah, you raise a good point. Wouldn't have been bad to have one or two male names thrown in there. Just a minor nit though.

Date: 2017-07-05 12:10 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] zachbeacon
Isn't Riddle sometimes written to have some sort of complex related to women? Maybe that's the reason.

Date: 2017-07-05 12:15 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
Not saying you're wrong, but if there is I haven't heard of it. Then again Riddler has been through many incarnations over the years, from cold blooded criminal mastermind to Gorshin-esque wacky man.

Date: 2017-07-05 12:51 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] zachbeacon
True. I don't remember where I read that and it mostly only stuck in my head because it seemed at odds for a villian who often has henchwomen.

Date: 2017-07-05 01:02 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
IIRC, I think it was a single short story, right after Hush, where Poison Ivy tries to kill Riddler, and Riddler's internal monologue is all about his complexes about women. It read a lot like MRA rambling.

Which is something that, as far as I know, he never showed before that, and never showed after that. If anything, Riddler usually gets along better with women than men. Usually has henchwomen (non-disposable ones to boot, he actually seems to stick long-term with Query & Echo), and teamed up with Harley Quinn and is on relatively friendly terms with her. The only man he gets along with is Penguin.

I'd call that story an outlier that should not be counted :P

Date: 2017-07-05 04:49 pm (UTC)
shakalooloo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shakalooloo
A good rule of thumb is to ignore Hush entirely.

Date: 2017-07-05 08:57 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
What issue was that?

Date: 2017-07-05 09:06 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
Sorry, I have no idea. It's a back-up story from like 10 years ago.

Date: 2017-07-05 09:11 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Yeah, my thought too...

Date: 2017-07-06 12:16 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] zachbeacon
Wait, maybe the gaurds with sons are at some father/son activity. That makes as much sense as anything else in this story.

Date: 2017-07-05 02:05 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Not sure how I feel about Riddler's look.

Date: 2017-07-05 06:46 am (UTC)
cainofdreaming: b/w (Default)
From: [personal profile] cainofdreaming
I on the other hand do know. Sideburns Eddie is not my Eddie.

Date: 2017-07-05 06:59 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
It's more the muscular look with the exposed chest that concerns me. He looks like some mafia heavy.

Date: 2017-07-05 12:23 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
I find it pretty fuuny.

Like, Eddie used to be this scrawny guy because he spent all his time studying. But after he became a criminal, he was forced to spend a lot of time running and climbing around and carrying and handling heavy tools, and ended up building up muscle. And after spending a lifetime as a runt, he was like HOLY SHIT CHECK IT OUT, I'M BUFF NOW :DDD EVERYBODY MUST KNOW!!!

That's my headcanon and I'm sticking to it :P

Date: 2017-07-05 12:29 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] lonewolf23k
Eh, works for me.

Date: 2017-07-05 12:23 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
Good point. I always saw The Riddler as a skinny guy. Then again, Gorshin's Riddler is my Riddler so all other Riddlers pale in comparison. :D

Date: 2017-07-05 07:44 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] beeyo
That's actually my only complaint about Mikel Janin's art: most of the males are drawn in the same muscular, broad-shouldered manner. Tim, Dick, Jason and Bruce all tend to look exactly the same, especially Tim and Dick.

Although Riddler did just do a year in prison, so I guess this instance almost makes sense. Not a lot of physical activity available in solitary, where I'm assuming they were keeping him, so push-up city it is.

Date: 2017-07-05 03:15 am (UTC)
alicemacher: Lisa Winklemeyer from the webcomic Penny and Aggie, c2004-2011 G. Lagacé, T Campbell (Default)
From: [personal profile] alicemacher
Wow. Normally I'm not so much for the portrayal of Joker as completely unsmilling and dour (e.g. in ASBaR: "They call me the Joker. But I'm not very funny.") This Joker, however... I don't know whether it's the art, the pacing (look how long he actually lets the Riddler talk), or something else, but somehow this scene manages to sell me on it.

Maybe because it's acknowledged in-story that that's not how the Joker normally is. So if a normally manic, wisecracking, cackling villain suddenly goes quiet and grumpy-looking... be afraid.

Date: 2017-07-05 03:47 am (UTC)
tigerkaya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tigerkaya
You would think Joker and Riddler would split days on who gets Batman. This event just feels sad and depressing by making Riddler and Joker out to be spurned lovers with schemes only centered around Batman.

Date: 2017-07-06 02:06 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] palgrave_goldenrod
To be fair, this event making "Riddler and Joker spurned lovers with schemes only centred around Batman" is pretty much just spelling out the obvious, really.

Date: 2017-07-06 05:35 am (UTC)
tigerkaya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tigerkaya
Well when you say it like that this event comes across as every fans fan fic now made into a company event.

Date: 2017-07-05 05:04 am (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime
"A joke is chaos; a riddle is order."

...what? I mean, what? The fuck kind of nonsense is that?

'Jokes make you laugh, but riddles make you think, so really-'
No, don't even.

Date: 2017-07-05 06:00 am (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
A joke is a subversion of expectations, so I can see how that would be seen as chaos.
And a riddle is explaining and organising the unconnected and unusual.

Date: 2017-07-05 06:08 am (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime
Right, but a joke still has to have setup, delivery and punchline.

"Why did the absurdist cross the road?"

There's still order in a joke. That's why that whole, 'Do I look like a guy with a plan?' thing in The Dark Knight bugged me. The Joker is still a crime boss who plans things, who sets up schemes meticulously. He seems crazy and disorganized, but he's not. It can't work that way. "Oh... I wanted the hostages to die by poison gas but instead they got loose and some got hit in traffic. That's neat."

Date: 2017-07-05 12:09 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
You are thinking of it from the maker's pov, though. From the pov of the consumer, it's just about subversion of expectations.

Like, strictly speaking, entropy is not actually chaos. It follows very specific scientific rules, can be predicted and manipulated. But for a layperson, entropy is BOOM!!!

This is why explaining a joke ruins it, but explaining the riddle is necessary for it to work.

Date: 2017-07-05 12:30 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] lonewolf23k
Chaos is like Art. It's hard to define, but you know it when you see it.

Date: 2017-07-05 05:52 pm (UTC)
burkeonthesly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] burkeonthesly
That Joker said "Do I look like a guy with a plan?", yeah, but he runs plans throughout the entire movie. Almost nothing he does is improvised. Even that remark is a step in the plan he's currently running, which is to get the cops and Batman confused and running around while he bombs police headquarters with the C4 sewn into one of his henchmen.

Date: 2017-07-05 07:29 am (UTC)
lbd_nytetrayn: Star Force Dragonzord Power! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lbd_nytetrayn
So wait, how did Riddler survive that, then?

Date: 2017-07-05 08:23 am (UTC)
tugrul: That Chest (Default)
From: [personal profile] tugrul
He survived because story.

Date: 2017-07-05 12:01 pm (UTC)
pyrrhocorax: It is XS! She is running! (XS)
From: [personal profile] pyrrhocorax
He has a second spleen?

Date: 2017-07-05 12:02 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
The impression I got (which might be entirely wrong, it looks kind of vague) is that he was carrying a hidden blood bag. He squeezed the bag and made it burst, covering himself in a ton of some other person's blood, and making it look like he had lost too much of his own blood to survive.

Gut shots are excruciatingly painful, but can take a very long time to kill you (in some cases, even days). If you manage to slip away and get medical help, survival is actually reasonably realistic.

Date: 2017-07-05 02:23 pm (UTC)
goattoucher: (Default)
From: [personal profile] goattoucher
You're seriously asking "How did X survive Y?" in a Batman comic, of all places?

When was the last time a Batman villain died? Certainly one created before 1980?

Date: 2017-07-05 02:25 pm (UTC)
goattoucher: (Brimley)
From: [personal profile] goattoucher
Nobody in Gotham leaves the house without Plot Armor.

Date: 2017-07-05 03:14 pm (UTC)
lbd_nytetrayn: Star Force Dragonzord Power! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lbd_nytetrayn
I had little doubt he'd live, I just figured there would be an explanation-- especially from the guy who likes showing how much smarter he is than everyone else.

Date: 2017-07-05 01:58 pm (UTC)
bradygirl_12: (bat o'lantern 2)
From: [personal profile] bradygirl_12
That panel about Gotham's misery? How is that different from any other day in that hellhole?


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