Date: 2017-07-05 10:35 am (UTC)
alicemacher: Lisa Winklemeyer from the webcomic Penny and Aggie, c2004-2011 G. Lagacé, T Campbell (Default)
From: [personal profile] alicemacher
That's a rather involved way to foreshadow what later happens to Starr, Mr. Ennis. Heh.

Date: 2017-07-05 12:02 pm (UTC)
leoboiko: manga-style picture of a female-identified person with long hair, face not drawn, putting on a Japanese fox-spirit max (Default)
From: [personal profile] leoboiko
Freud would have a field day with Ennis, wouldn't him.

Date: 2017-07-05 02:31 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] remial
you know, the more Ennis I read the more I think that all the comics he writes are his way of getting back at his readers, because he is pissed off that the only real success he has as a writer is when he writes comics.

Date: 2017-07-05 08:16 pm (UTC)
mrosa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrosa
I don't understand what you mean.

What other success should he expect to have, as a writer, outside writing comics?

Date: 2017-07-06 12:53 am (UTC)
lbd_nytetrayn: Star Force Dragonzord Power! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lbd_nytetrayn
Presumably writing in other forms of media, perhaps even "more legitimate" ones.

Date: 2017-07-06 11:00 am (UTC)
mrosa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrosa
But has he tried writing in other media? I don't follow his work, so I'm genuinely asking.

Date: 2017-07-06 07:15 pm (UTC)
lbd_nytetrayn: Star Force Dragonzord Power! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lbd_nytetrayn
I don't know for sure offhand, but I thought I'd heard about him doing so. I could easily be mistaken, or thinking of someone else, though.

Date: 2017-07-06 09:52 pm (UTC)
mrosa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrosa
Perhaps you're thinking of Ellis; he's written novels.

Date: 2017-07-05 02:54 pm (UTC)
goattoucher: (Zod)
From: [personal profile] goattoucher
Catcher in the Rye.

When Catcher first came out, people were outraged. How could a book have all that profanity, all that discussion of sexuality expressed so overtly, and by a teenager! In 1951! It was banned as pornography (in the sense of "vulgar with no redeeming cultural value") in many places.

However, it affected many people profoundly. Holden spoke the way people actually spoke. Teenagers have been swearing, drinking, and having sex for as long as there have been teenagers, but nobody was allowed to talk about it, certainly not in print. Not in serious literature. Salinger tapped into the Zeitgeist, and his book rose to stratospheric acclaim, in time.

He only published a handful of works over the next fifteen years, and then fell out of the public eye altogether, never publishing after 1967. How could he express himself in his voice without seeming like a retread of Catcher. When you think about the great American novelists of the last century, they either drank themselves to death, committed suicide, or became recluses after publishing their greatest works.

After the watershed moment of Catcher, writers were able to talk about subjects that had previously been taboo. Undeniably inspired by the voice of Holden Caufield, their characters expressed themselves in ways that would have shocked people in 1951, but today, it is par for the course.

This is what Garth Ennis did for Comic Book ultra violence. Preacher is his Catcher in the Rye, with blood and sodomy instead of "goddamn" and drinking. Before, comic violence was limited to Punisher and Wolverine: a splash of blood or a headshot shown in silhouette. With Preacher, we got blood, gore, and toxic sexuality from a major publisher the likes of which you had only seen before in alternative press.

His work has had an undeniable impact on the writers since. Blood and gore, and rape are de rigueur in "adult" titles these days. All shades of Ennis.

The thing is, Ennis did not drink himself to death, like Fitzgerald, shoot himself like Hemingway, or go into seclusion like Salinger and Lee. He keeps producing, and it is the same and the same and the same. With each series, he either tries to out-Preacher Preacher, or, at least, matches Preacher for gore and sexual violence. He is the same man singing the same song over and over, doing exactly what other 20th century artists tried to avoid.

His techniques have become tropes, and he is almost a parody of himself. Ennis is one of a dozen or more writers using this level of violence in comics these days. It is no longer shocking. It is no longer holding a mirror up to the face of mainstream comics. Frankly, it is boring. His work today is like the tenth Friday the 13th movie: the first was a tour de force: subsequent movies are just more of the same, selling based on name recognition, rather than story or innovation.

When you first read the Preacher in the 90's, you likely responded with something akin to "Holy FUCK! Look at this!"

You see him do the same sort of thing in contemporary comics, and you respond "Yep. That's Ennis being Ennis." and then pick up the next comic.
Edited Date: 2017-07-05 02:55 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-07-05 05:56 pm (UTC)
stolisomancer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stolisomancer
The problem with that analysis is that it makes the same mistake a lot of would-be critics make about Ennis: you're clearly talking about the work of a writer you don't enjoy, so you haven't sought out his work, and thus only hear about it from scans or the occasional controversy.

This isn't his only schtick. In the last few years alone, he's written a violent romantic comedy (A Train Called Love), a horror space opera (Caliban), a World War II historical piece about the Tuskagee Airmen (Dreaming Eagles), a different WWII piece about the Russian front (Johnny Red), a cop drama (Red Team), a horror-comedy ("Code Pru" in Cinema Purgatorio), and a couple of straight-up parodies (Where Monsters Dwell, Jimmy's Bastards, the Sixpack books for DC).

While his points of interest keep him well away from mainstream work (Ennis doesn't seem interested in doing even superhero-adjacent stories, the way that Warren Ellis can filter his own sensibilities through Moon Knight or the Avengers), he's easily one of the most genre-flexible writers in the modern comic book industry. Assuming that he's only a shock writer is a mistake you can only make if you know next to nothing about him besides incidental scans.

Date: 2017-07-05 07:07 pm (UTC)
goattoucher: (Kurt)
From: [personal profile] goattoucher
I see how you might make that assumption, but, as a point of fact, I really enjoyed Preacher. I had left comics behind at the age of sixteen or so, and picked Preacher up in the Trades in my twenties. It was a delightful reintroduction to comics, and was partly responsible for opening me up to comics like Sandman, Hellboy, and other titles for more mature sensibilities.

For Ennis' work in particular, I loved Hitman (which was violent, but not as extreme as Preacher), I enjoyed the parts of his Hellblazer run that I have read, I thought Unknown Soldier was a great read (and deconstruction of nationalist superheroes, and I, in all seriousness, -love- seeing my sacred cows dissected), and Dan Dare was a genuine Treat, as I had been (like most Americans) totally unfamiliar with the character.

That said, I thought his Punisher Max series had some gold coins to be found it was was mostly a pile of gore, Then came The Boys, which says it all, I think, followed by Crossed, and if a rape cannibal wielding a horse penis isn't the Ennisest of moments, I don't know what is.

Now I have not had the opportunity to read the titles you mentioned, because I frankly do not have the time, inclination, or liquid income to pursue his complete works. I will take you at your word that he is capable of solid work without indulging in ultra violence (Dan Dare proves that, if nothing else). That said, he does produce a lot of ultra violent content, and I don't think that material is particularly innovative or engaging.

So I will grant that suggesting that he would have been better served riding off into the sunset, a la Salinger, is a misguided suggestion at least, but he is undeniably the Godfather of modern comic Gore/"Comedy" Rape, and I would suggest that that type of work is best either put behind him, or applied in a more nuanced and judicious way, as opposed to the splatter fests he occasionally indulges in.

But that's me. He's undeniably a great writer, and Preacher is a great work, particularly when you bear in mind that the gore on display was innovative in it's time.
Edited Date: 2017-07-05 07:08 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-07-05 05:05 pm (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
"Almost"?

Date: 2017-07-05 11:22 pm (UTC)
lissa_quon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lissa_quon
So judging from the comments in previous posts, Herr Starr 'becomes' gay? Call me odd but ...liking being pegged doesn't necessarily make a dude gay...Does it? Not touching the whole "rape made him gay" thing just curious more about the difference in acts.

Bear in mind I'm ace so I sort of mentally file allosexuals a bit differently.

Date: 2017-07-06 03:54 pm (UTC)
filthysize: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filthysize
It's... complicated, mainly because it's intended to be a big lark. You are correct that never once in the series did he then start pursuing men, so saying that he "became gay" as others said is clearly wrong, since pegging has nothing to do with homosexuality. However, it's supposed to be a part of this joke that Starr's a powerful, controlling, and intimidating man, but secretly likes to be dominated and humiliated in bed (repression is a hilarious concept to Ennis, I guess).

After he was first raped, Starr got angry and yelled at Hoover, "You turned me into a homosexual!" Hoover correctly replied "I don't think that's how it works..." But that outburst suggests that Starr believed he "turned gay" because he enjoyed the violation. In this issue, he finally feels great because he's able to confirm that he can have that same sexual gratification with women as well.

Date: 2017-07-06 11:03 am (UTC)
mrosa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrosa
On page 12, I love that shot of Starr looking out of the panel from the corner of his eye; you can just tell he wants to escape that situation.

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