Date: 2017-07-06 08:55 am (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
Okay, I'm all in on Red Locust. Like completely there for it and cursing the cruel world that we did not hear the sacred speech fully. Like have some respect, dude, explosives in your leg or not.

Also, Old Man Cyclops is simply adorable. Although it does make me feel conflicted as I do like seeing what they do with the X-Men without Adult!Cyclops's presence, but I love the character so much that I feel like a hypocrite.

Date: 2017-07-06 11:14 am (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
Oh look, another teen/child genius. Although I admit she has ten times more personality than Riri Williams.

Date: 2017-07-06 11:55 am (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
You're not wrong, but it doesn't really bother me. You make the same argument of 'oh, look, another Inhuman/Mutant/person mutated by X'. You need a way to gloss over the hero getting powers somehow. She isn't presented as a super-genius, but given how they gloss over the 'oh yeah, I just taught myself this stuff and *bang* super-armor'.

I'd find it amusing if it turned out she got the basic ideas from a website with details of somebody's old armor suit, like say the Rocket Racer or something.

Date: 2017-07-06 12:18 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
The Great Lakes Avengers sadly short-lived (5.8 seconds after joining) Grasshopper would be my choice.

Date: 2017-07-06 12:30 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
But it's like having another speedster or guy with claws and a healing factor, or another Hulk/gamma irradiated strong guy. Or too many Thors, which with the "War Thor" we now have.

When you have so many people with the same power then it is no longer unique. Riri, Moon Girl, Wasp, Red Locust. And let's not forget Wasp's new pals, GIRL, which consists of teenage science geniuses who together can remove a bomb from a person's head without killing her...without medical facilities.

It's lazy writing. If she had said the armor was magical and handed down to her and she had retooled it to look more modern at least that would have been a bit more unique than what has now become a cliche at Marvel.

Date: 2017-07-06 02:37 pm (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
I can see that, it just doesn't bother me, honestly. I mean, that's been true of Marvel pretty much since the start with Super Genius Science Guys: Hank Pym, Bruce Banner, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, Peter Parker. Heck, guys who just straight up invented super suits is no short list, nor guys who went to a monastery and got super powers, nor guys who got experimented on and got powers.

Where you see lazy writing, I see economy in a four-page backup story. I don't see 'genius inventor' as their power, so much as an excuse for how they got their actual powers. They are really good at comic book SCIENCE!, not actual science. Having newcomers like Amadeus Cho and Moon Girl show up and be super smart in a world overflowing with super smart characters doesn't feel that much of a stretch for me, relatively.

Date: 2017-07-06 06:00 pm (UTC)
miramira: book stack (Default)
From: [personal profile] miramira
Except magical bug armor kinda evokes old school Blue Beetle. Which I don't have a problem with, but there really are only so many spins you can give an origin story.

Date: 2017-07-07 12:01 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
But at least having a character with magical armor and some mystical background would have been different than the glut of girl geniuses that Marvel has been producing lately. That's my main issue, that these girl geniuses all appearing in such a short time together looks silly and feels like lazy writing. And to my knowledge Dan Garrett hasn't appeared in modern comics ever.

Date: 2017-07-07 06:17 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Considering we had so few female geniuses before, i don't see what's the issue.

You also seem to forget that they are still outnumbered by the male super genius heroes.

Date: 2017-07-07 06:37 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
Yeah, the same thought occurred to me but I wasn't sure how to bring it up.

For decades, there have been so many scientific geniuses in Marvel that you can't throw a stick without hitting five, and nobody minds. But start making some of them women, and suddenly it's out of hand?
Edited Date: 2017-07-07 06:39 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-07-07 12:14 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
Please don't try to paint me as being sexist, because you are editing out half of the issue I have with these characters.

Date: 2017-07-07 12:11 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
I don't have a problem with the characters being women, I have a problem with them being young geniuses, all appearing so quickly together.

When you talk about the male geniuses like Tony Stark, Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Victor Von Doom, they were created as guys at least in their thirties (In Doom and Reed's case he was easily in his forties) who had decades to build up a host of scientific and technical knowledge. They went to school or had the advantages of a background that afforded them the means of taking advantage of their genius, cultivating it and expanding it. The only exception I think is Amadeus Cho and the explanation there was he was a mutant.

So there is a substantial difference between the men you mention and the young ladies that are now appearing en masses in the pages of Moon Girl, Wasp, Iron Man, Champions, etc.

Date: 2017-07-12 11:42 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Except even Amadeus isn't the only male teen genius and last i checked he's not a mutant. In fact male teen/kid geniuses are pretty common.

So again, it's weird to single out the female Teen/Kid geniuses. Like young girls/women being intelligent is a bad thing

Also, you only gave an example of three female geniuses, which isn't that many. And Champions, which i guess you're talking about Locus or Viv. So that's either 4 or 5 depending on if you're counting Viv and even that doesn't qualify as "En Masses". It seems like you're making a mountain out of an ant hill.
Edited Date: 2017-07-12 11:47 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-07-06 12:21 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] locuatico
is she? the way it sounds, she studied Hydraulics and Exoskeletons FOR becoming Red Locust, rather than it being sometihng she already had.

also, she "only" gave the suit super-strenght and the ability to jump, which IS impressive but, assuming Tony made available some basic information of how the Iron Man suit works (not the high-tech stuff, just the basic mechanical aspects)... I CAN believe someone with a decent understanding of engineering being able to acomplish.

Date: 2017-07-06 12:26 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
Yeah, and Tony studied various technical and scientific disciplines before becoming Iron Man. What's your point?

And she's, what, sixteen? And has access to what I assume are only basic facilities rather than, say, the labs at MIT? Pretty impressive, creating a suit that give you "only" super strength and super leaping.

Date: 2017-07-06 12:43 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] locuatico
that creating the Iron Man suit required Tony to overcome a number of shortcomings, which is were his many technical and scientific disciplines come into play but, once he did, if he were to publish his acomplishments (ways in which you can make a functional exoskeleton without losing freedom of movement, for example), said disciplines would no longer be required to make a more basic version of the suit, because the shortcomings have already been sorted out.

Date: 2017-07-06 12:58 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
Using that logic then we should be seeing legions of Red Locust type super heroes and villains running around, because it's obviously so easy to just go in your garage with an blowtorch and sheet metal and come out with a suit of powered armor.

Date: 2017-07-06 03:56 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] locuatico
Well, the armor already existed, she only added some tech stuff. as for the other point...... yes? hell, that taxi driver should be driving a Stark Brand flying car by this point. There has always been a disconnect between how advanced technology is in the Marvel/DC universe and how... unaffected society seems to be by it.

Date: 2017-07-06 04:03 pm (UTC)
burkeonthesly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] burkeonthesly
Tony was surprised when some of his villains turned out to be using tech cribbed from his own notes, and he fought hard to put a damper on that, so I kinda doubt he published much in the way of suit designs at any point.

Date: 2017-07-06 04:50 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] locuatico
Not suit design. Simple theory.
And if not him then Parker industries and their prosthetic technology. Or maybe Hank Pym or reed Richard

Date: 2017-07-06 11:52 am (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
I'm loving this series.

I particularly adore Red Locust. She's not only fun, she's got a great character hook. She rescues runaways, finds lost people and protects travelers. People leaving a request at a box at a church to get the Red Locust's help shows her as working on the ground level. Leave fighting the Skrulls to the Avengers, the Red Locust society has been quietly doing their sacred task for centuries.

I equally love how Cyclops functions on this team. The most serious character, but he's trying new things. The initial tussle where he has to learn to let someone else lead is a great beat. He doesn't intend to try and lead, it's just something he's done so long he has to make an effort to not do it. His having Viv create holograms of the 'grown-ups' so he can prepare defensive arguments is both very in character and interesting. Also, Nova comes off really well this issue, too.

Date: 2017-07-06 12:19 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Much like in the team with Jean as leader, Scott not being leader is an odd choice, since he tends to be very, very good at the things that leaders need to be good at, better than anyone else on the team... so him NOT being leader seems counterproductive for all concerned.

Date: 2017-07-06 12:57 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] zachbeacon
Yeah but it's totally understandable. Everyone keeps telling him the the path he was on leads to supervillainy (and the deaths of most of his team). Sure old Scott really just had bad PR and the two Scotts are from different universes anyway but, once the idea is in your head, I can see why you'd second guess yourself.

Date: 2017-07-06 02:13 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
True, but the alternative is having your team led by the second best person for the job, which on missions is not a very good idea (cf the Titans and Outsiders teamup where Batman assumes he's in charge because he's Batman, and Robin has to tell him to back down because to be honest, he's a much better team leader than Batman is.. and it's true)

It wasn't being team leader that drove Scott ot the choices he made (though the responsibility it didn't help), it was the circumstances he found himself in, which Tykelops won't be in because time has passed.

Date: 2017-07-06 05:41 pm (UTC)
dustbunny105: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dustbunny105
On the other hand, if he lacks that much confidence in himself as a leader, he's not going to be effective as one. Better to let someone else take the reins if he can't get a grip.

Date: 2017-07-07 05:32 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] zachbeacon
Scott is a great leader at any age but I think I can forgive a teenager for not having the greatest judgment all the time.

Speaking of teens with poor judgment...Jean is second best? Really? This Jean is the worst*. I would have thought Hank.

*Expect for maybe Nova. Though even he had a good moment over the Champions comyright issue.

Date: 2017-07-06 04:06 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
and the two Scotts are from different universes anyway

Really? I thought he was just from the past. I missed the AU part.

Date: 2017-07-06 04:39 pm (UTC)
balbanes: (Default)
From: [personal profile] balbanes
The teen X-men recently went to the past and found another set of original X-men there. Which means that wherever they're from, it's not the 616 past.

Previously, it was strongly implied that the teen X-men were from the 616 past, as adult Cyclops disappeared when teen Cyclops was (temporarily) dead. That was pre-Secret Wars, though, so my headcanon says things shifted afterwards.

Date: 2017-07-06 05:58 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
The past timeline up to the point of travelling forward are so similar, does it really matter, from a "where they started from" POV?

They are, essentially, from the 616 past, they've just added in this alt-U verse to explain why they can't go back again.

Date: 2017-07-06 06:25 pm (UTC)
balbanes: (Default)
From: [personal profile] balbanes
The alt-U background also allows the writers to evolve the teen X-men in ways that differ from their mainstream counterparts. For instance, teen Scott is way more comfortable in his own skin than 616 Scott was at that age. Teen Jean was far less respectful of others' mental privacy than 616 Jean (though Teen Jean got better). Teen Hank is more insecure and uncertain of himself than pre-blue 616 Hank. Etc.

To some extent this can be blamed on their different backgrounds, e.g. Teen Jean was arguably rebelling against her genocidal destiny, which 616 Jean did not have knowledge of. But the alternate universe background absolves all differences: Teen Jean isn't 616 Jean, so we shouldn't expect her to behave exactly the same.

Date: 2017-07-07 04:38 am (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
I like how you left out Teen Angel, who let a dangerous cosmic artifact turn his wings into fire in order to deviate from his counterpart's path as much as possible.

Date: 2017-07-06 07:25 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
Thank you for the info.

Date: 2017-07-07 04:01 pm (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
Pre-Secret Wars, Hank going back into the past would have diverged an alternate timeline that he'd be yanking the young X-Men out of, without actually affecting his own past. So going back again would diverge a(n all) new, (all) different alternate timeline off the original, and they would still be there.

Post-Secret Wars all the parallel universes seem to be separate creations of Owen Reece and the FF, presumably with their own retroactive timelines that extend backward before the point that they were recreated at. We've been told the past changes, both in that time travelers from possible futures can come back to affect the present and in that certain events get pulled forward in the wake of the present. So who knows where the teen X-Men actually originated?
Edited Date: 2017-07-07 04:02 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-07-06 04:45 pm (UTC)
balbanes: (Default)
From: [personal profile] balbanes
Yeah. Earlier on when the Champions were arguing about who should be leader, it was very very obvious that Scott was the best choice. But he just... deferred to Kamala, and that was that.

OTOH, it's not like the Champions are in world-threatening scenarios, so maybe Scott feels he can take a back seat? When you're constantly responsible for everyone else, not being in charge can be a blessed relief.

Date: 2017-07-06 05:17 pm (UTC)
coldfury: (Default)
From: [personal profile] coldfury
Yeah, I think the Champions is a chance for him to see who he can be outside of X-Men, and if he jumped in the leader role right away, what is he really learning about himself?

Date: 2017-07-07 12:53 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
that he was naturally a leader?

Date: 2017-07-06 07:54 pm (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
Kamala's the one who got the team started, and for what the Champions are meant to do - act as social icons - Kamala's going to be a more capable guide than someone who's not really up on contemporary society.

Tyke is still their best tactician, there's no doubt there, but he can play that role without being team leader.

So it makes sense to me.

Date: 2017-07-07 06:42 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
My impression is the team doesn't have a leader.

Date: 2017-07-06 03:23 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
... I don't know if it's just the art style, or writer's choice but... Scott should look older, surely.
Yeah, he's a teenager, but not thirteen or fourteen. He wasn't exactly a fresh-faced youth when the X-Men started up...

-the first time I had a roof over my head since childhood-
... what about that orphanage? The one run by Sinister?
'cuz Scott's mutant powers came in there, and those things usually come around in puberty so...
... okay, maybe Scott's just not mentioning the orphanage because it was utter horror or something.

Date: 2017-07-06 06:00 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I've been wondering about how old he was supposed to be, he certainly seemed older in his solo series when he went into space with Corsair.

Scott's life was pretty miserable at the orphanage, thanks to Sinister's determination that Scott wouldn't form any emotional bonds.

Date: 2017-07-06 11:12 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
Well, Hank was supposed to be the oldest of the O5, wasn't he? Given he graduated first, but Scott surely can't have been very far behind, so... sixteen, seventeen-ish?

Somewhere in the mid-to-late teens era, at any rate.

(And... I do know Scott's time at the orphanage. Just figure he wasn't mentioning, or some other reason.
Curse my ambiguous syntax.)

Date: 2017-07-06 04:05 pm (UTC)
burkeonthesly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] burkeonthesly
Okay, those first couple panels when she appeared, Red Locust gave me this Blue Beetle feel (Hispanic teenage legacy hero with an exoskeleton and a color-insect name/theme, trying hard to help people), and I am on board with that. Did anyone else feel that, or am I just seeing things?

Date: 2017-07-06 06:02 pm (UTC)
miramira: book stack (Default)
From: [personal profile] miramira
It's never just you. ;) But yeah, I could totally see her and Jaime teaming up should the multiverses align.

Date: 2017-07-06 11:49 pm (UTC)
burkeonthesly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] burkeonthesly

This is why I love Scans_Daily.

Date: 2017-07-06 04:37 pm (UTC)
halloweenjack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] halloweenjack
How are any of these kids surprised by anyone else's atypical childhood or likes/dislikes?

Date: 2017-07-06 06:09 pm (UTC)
miramira: book stack (Default)
From: [personal profile] miramira
Because they're kids, and wanting to be seen as cool rather than weird is a hard thing to break even if you're a superhero?

(Plus, they're right. I remember a lot of high school chatter about Ross and Rachel, but not so much about Jerry and company.)

Date: 2017-07-06 07:18 pm (UTC)
halloweenjack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] halloweenjack
But they've all had atypical childhoods. "I'm an Inhuman." "My dad was a black ops spaceman and I inherited his powers by putting on his helmet." "I'm Amadeus Cho, where do I even start." But the Seinfeld fan sticks out? Where did you go to high school, Hogwarts?

Date: 2017-07-06 10:26 pm (UTC)
miramira: book stack (Default)
From: [personal profile] miramira
I don't think they'd have been weirded out if Scott said he didn't watch much TV due to extenuating circumstances, period. And okay, maybe it doesn't make sense for everyone but Viv to have the exact same reaction. But if he does express a preference, why don't they get to have an opinion on it?

Date: 2017-07-08 04:05 pm (UTC)
halloweenjack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] halloweenjack
Of course they get to have an opinion on it, but, as you said, it's weird for them all to have the same reaction. Having one of them go "Oh, Seinfeld? Yeah, my dad likes that show" would make a bit more sense IMNSHO.

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