Date: 2017-08-31 11:20 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
And there's the most obvious failing in Batman's anti-Superman plan--it only works if Superman is still a good guy. Red K, classic version or this version, doesn't make him harmless; by altering his powers or disrupting his control over them, he becomes more of a threat to the people around him. In this story he voluntarily exiles himself to the Watchtower in order to reduce that threat, but why would an evil or insane Superman even bother? He'd just unload on whoever pissed him off, with even more power than usual, and not worry about the collateral damage.

Date: 2017-09-01 01:35 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kd_the_movie
I think they do mention that it is extremely painful for Superman in addition to boosting his power.

Date: 2017-09-01 01:47 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
Definitely, but again--if Superman goes rogue, will constant maddening pain make him behave better? Or will it just make him go berserk, same as J'onn did when he was constantly burning?

Date: 2017-09-01 02:54 pm (UTC)
kamino_neko: Tedd from El Goonish Shive. Drawn by Dan Shive, coloured by Kamino Neko. (Default)
From: [personal profile] kamino_neko
Yeah. It's clearly not actually crippling, so...

Really, none of the plans are actually any good, and the whole thing about him having to have them doesn't even track.

The only way the plans would ever need to come into play would be if every member of the League except him went bad...and didn't immediately take him out.

The plans aren't, inherently, a bad idea. But he went about them in a supremely terrible way.

Like, make plans. But!

1) Make multiple plans for each member. Plan for the plans failing. Plan for having to escalate. Plan for not having access to the targets.

2) Store them in multiple secure locations. Don't put all the plans at each location (and don't put multiple targets' strategies at the same location), but put every plan in multiple locations.

3) Don't invite the trust issue. Tell them the plans exist. Share some of the locations with each member - none that include their own, and don't tell them every location, but give them that much trust. Obviously, don't tell anyone who knows where the plans meant for them are.

Date: 2017-09-01 05:44 pm (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
Its actually one of the things I like about Batman. As much as a paranoid control freak he claims to be his plans for Superman always, ALWAYS assume that at hear Superman is a good guy. Maybe mislead, maybe mind controlled, but the idea that Superman would just go completely off the reservation is just not even a question.

Date: 2017-09-01 01:34 am (UTC)
zylly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zylly
This really brings back to mind my problems with the Batman of this era. He's a jerk to everyone all the time. I've always said that, yes, criminals should be afraid of Batman. But there's no reason Kyle or Wally should be. Bronze Age Bats was a spooky figure of the night, but he was also good friends with most of the League.

Also, would it have been so terrible for him to have said, "I won't apologize for formulating plans, but I am sorry they were taken to this level and used on you"?

Date: 2017-09-01 02:25 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
And, as that puppet in that movie said, "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." If a JLA member is afraid of Batman long enough, he will hate him. ("He" because Diana isn't about fear and hatred.)

And Batman's healthy, grown-up response is "Fine. I'll just hate them right back."

Date: 2017-09-01 04:03 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
Which is a really terrible attitude to take with people who can punch mountains to death.

As Batman himself said at the beginning of the Morrison run, he has trouble working with superpeople because he's not powerful enough to keep himself safe if they screw up. Well, he doesn't get any safer if they actively dislike him as well.

Date: 2017-09-01 02:53 pm (UTC)
cygnia: (Smug Rarity is Smug)
From: [personal profile] cygnia
("He" because Diana isn't about fear and hatred.)

She will just bind him into loving submission! ;)

Date: 2017-09-01 03:37 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
Yeah, I think it reached its nadir* in one of the Joe Kelly issues where Wally was like "He's touching me. Batman is touching me. I'm going to die, aren't I?"

It was a joke, but, just, no. When Batman touches you and you're not a criminal, you're supposed to think, "Great, everything will be all right now, this guy is here to solve things." He should be intimidating, but he should still inspire trust.

*Its nadir in that JLA run, I mean. I'm not touching all the later stuff with Brother Eye and Superbat, where Bruce seems straight-up unhinged.
Edited Date: 2017-09-01 03:55 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-09-01 03:22 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Brother Eye. Which, again, was used by the bad guys. Seeing a pattern, Bruce?

INFINITY CRISIS almost uses an "out" for Brother Eye. But didn't. Power Girl thinks Psycho Pirate turned Batman paranoid under orders from Alexander Luthor. Alexander says "No. They did that to themselves, Karen."

Date: 2017-09-01 09:43 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] matrix_dragon
Yes, they worlds greatest heroes, plus Batman, are absolutely not good enough to stop... You.
"Do... Do you not know who I am?"
Gary? Gil, Glen? Something with a G?

Date: 2017-09-01 02:01 pm (UTC)
kamino_neko: Tedd from El Goonish Shive. Drawn by Dan Shive, coloured by Kamino Neko. (Default)
From: [personal profile] kamino_neko
... Man, I don't remember the art on this arc being this bad.

Date: 2017-09-01 02:20 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-09-02 04:08 pm (UTC)
bradygirl_12: (aphrodite (queen 1))
From: [personal profile] bradygirl_12
The wisdom of Athena! :)

Date: 2017-09-02 04:08 pm (UTC)
bradygirl_12: (jla (lj))
From: [personal profile] bradygirl_12
Bruce got off easy here due to the crisis still in full mode, but any of these heroes might have been tempted to knock him into next Sunday after all their suffering.

Hmm, easy to see where Damian gets his crappy attitude toward other heroes.

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