"The Child is Father To..." or, "So many levels of EW."

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

Gather 'round, chilluns, it's storytime.

I was originally intending to post some Christian-comic cheese, but having the memory of this brought up made me insistent on sharing the pain, especially since the original S_D went bust and took this with it. Thus, I bring you the story of how Carol Danvers gave birth to her own rapist, featuring pages and partial pages from Avengers #197-200*.

Once upon a time, Ms. Marvel and Scarlet Witch are walking along a beach, discussing Wanda's growing desire to have children, when suddenly, Marvel collapses.



Wanda rushes her to the hospital, where she gets a massive surprise.



And not only is Marvel pregnant, the baby is growing at a rate no baby should, and yet it's not causing her any added physical stress. But emotional stress... hoo boy.




Meanwhile, the other Avengers have been off dealing with a giant mecha called the Red Ronin, and are more than a little surprised to come home to a pregnant lady on the couch.



While the initial mood at the coming of a baby is joyous, later that night, things are more subdued, as they worry about their teammate.



They all gather to keep an eye on the labor, but it's not exactly the usual sort.






After an amazingly quick and painless birth, the happy mood's returned over the brand new and seemingly healthy baby boy, but, understandably, not everyone's sharing it.



Things start to calm down, until it becomes evident that the pregnancy isn't the only thing that grew abnormally fast.



Damn, that last panel's really creepy looking. Anyway.

Meanwhile, Carol's very much over being the vessel for some creepy kid, but decides to take the advice to confront the problem...



Who's becoming a bigger problem by the minute.



And as if this weren't bad enough, at the same time that the creepy kid's continuing to shoot up at an impossible rate, reality is going haywire. Dinosaurs popping up in Central Park, etc. And then, when Carol does go see 'her' child...



Ew.

And several pages of reality-chaos later, the levels of creepy just shoot right off the charts as Marcus is forced to explain what the hell is going on.






In case y'all missed that bit, allow me to make it bigger.



Once again, EW.



...Er, guys? Did you totally forget that he can do mind control? Why are you just- oh, fuck it, nevermind.

And thus, one of the creepiest stories to come out of comics in 1980 closes, and Carol Danvers vanishes from the comics for a bit. But not without some noise, as a lot of people, including some Marvel staff, thought this story was way over the top in skeeze. Chris Claremont was so annoyed that when he brought Carol back as part of the X-Men storyline in Avengers Annual #10, he had her explicitly call the Avengers out for being complete dumbasses in allowing Marcus to waltz off with her without even making sure she really was going willingly.

*Issue 200: Roughly 10 1/2 of 35 story pages.

Comments

[interrobamf.insanejournal.com]

I will convey my feelings in a photograph.

[sandoz_iscariot.insanejournal.com]

Ew. Ew. Whoever thought this was okay?

And eyes are rolling at Dr. Sensitive there. "An unplanned pregnancy causes distress? Gasp!"

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

Jim Shooter, apparently, since according to Carol Strickland's essay on this crap, he overrode another story idea for it.

[starwolf_oakley.insanejournal.com]

IIRC, it was originally a plan by the Kree to create a Kree/Human hybrid, and picking Carol due to her "link" to Captain Mar-Vell.

Not Jim Shooter's finest idea. I wonder what ideas he didn't use and why.

Reposted for wording fail.

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

I can't verify her claims, but Strickland says this on the matter:

With a landmark issue coming, big number 200, staff wondered: what to do for the occasion? It was decided that Ms. Marvel would have a baby. Michelinie said that it would be the Supreme Intelligence's kid, since the Supremor has always wanted a Kree-Terran hybrid. This would natually lead to an intriguing adventure, a climax to the years of scheming through countless comics for the Supremor, and a probable end to the Supremor himself, once Ms. Marvel beat him up for what he did to her -- and her child.

Ah -- but Jim Shooter said no! What If #20: "What if the Avengers Fought the Kree-Skull War without Rick Jones?" had ended its tale with the imaginary/parallel world Supremor merging his intelligence with the inert form of Mr. Jones to become himself his precious hybrid. Jim Shooter, editor-in-chief of the Marvel Multiverse, proclaimed that the story would be too much alike and too soon after the What If? story. He didn't bother to look at the many times in which the Supremor's plans have infiltrated a half-dozen titles within as many months in years past, with no complaint from readers.

Re: Reposted for wording fail.

[starwolf_oakley.insanejournal.com]

Right, forgot about the WHAT IF part.

Ah, Jim Shooter. He had his own "take" on things, didn't he? And he wouldn't be the last EIC to have a good idea that wilted in the execution.

From John Byrne's message board:

My point exactly, Paulo. Shooter used similar scenes elsewhere, but the Hank/Jan incident became a defining moment for one of Marvel's original characters. Shooter's story, as I recall, wasn't a treatment on how spousal abuse was wrong, it was a tale of Pym's fall from grace (which aren't necessarily the same thing). Had he written the scene with Hank shooting Jan with his costume's weaponry to disable her or render her unconscious, only to have her appear at the court martial at the last minute to disable the robot he had created and reveal his duplicity, I wonder if his character could have survived better or recovered sooner, especially in light of the Egghead brain-control retcon/reveal.

Shooter made a storytelling choice, for which Hank Pym paid a price as a character. Shooter then made similar storytelling choices in other comics that left no lasting stains on the characters. Until I came across this Legion story I thought Hank's slap was a well-considered choice, albeit a regrettable one. Since then I've been wondering if Shooter was writing these scenes for reasons that had nothing to do with the stories being told.

This would be the same Jim Shooter who ordered me to redraw a panel of THE AVENGERS in which I had an out-of-costume Hawkeye punch the Absorbing Man in the back of the head after AM had shoved Clint off a bar stool. "My heroes don't do that!" said Shooter, despite the fact that practically the whole office agreed it was totally in character for Hawkeye to do so.

Re: Reposted for wording fail.

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

Ohhhh, that's riiiight. I have him to blame for the smack heard round the comics world as well. For some reason, I didn't check the writer on that issue. ::adds to tally::

Re: Reposted for wording fail.

[sinisterlink.insanejournal.com]

*gasp* Hawkeye punching someone? Now that's just silly. Everyone knows Hawkeye never punches people. Wait...

Re: Reposted for wording fail.

[xdoop.insanejournal.com]

What Legion story?

Re: Reposted for wording fail.

[starwolf_oakley.insanejournal.com]

I don't know the details, but it was in Superboy Vol. 1 #215.

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/uploads/WaydeMurray/2009-08-06_144310_Superboy_v1_215_-_21a.jpg

Re: Reposted for wording fail.

[ashtoreth.insanejournal.com]

If you focus on male-female interaction, I can see how that might be troublesome. Especially the 'It's MY fault!'

However, these are superheroes. They hit each other all the time. You really can't compare civilian culture to it.

Re: Reposted for wording fail.

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

Except that Shooter doesn't try to handle it as a superhero thing, not here, and not in the incident with Hank and Jan. He handles it like a male-female thing in the scripting, and that makes it impossible to divorce civilian ethics from it entirely.

[ashtoreth.insanejournal.com]

That's fair. It always bothered me that Kaine beat Darkdevil with a two-by-four so hard he got a concussion. It was on the surface a hero-trying-to-capture-a-criminal fight, but Kaine was the closest thing to a father DD had, and DD was still a minor.

I guess some things need to be completely..not sure what word to use, righteous?..in order to be accepted. For instance, if Jan became DARK WASP and started sucking people's blood, it would be okay for Hank to hit her.

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

Even if she'd gone evil, this scene would have had problems, simply because it's not a superhero fight, or a hero-vs-villain fight. It's a guy backhanding his wife, and is handled as such. Frankly, I think it would have caused a lot less problems if it had been presented as a superhero fight, or, as Byrne suggested, he had simply used knockout gas on her or something. Hell, it's not like she's not been knocked out by her own teammates through similar non-physical methods before, and she could have still been angry enough to divorce him afterwards because of the violation of trust. I just think that by invoking something like straight-up domestic violence, it provoked a visceral reaction in both readers and later writers that gave the scene immortality in all the wrong ways, and could have been handled so much better.

Jesus, that got long. Er, sorry.

Re: Reposted for wording fail.

[rab62.insanejournal.com]

Wait...John Byrne? John Byrne (http://www.heroplay.com/features/articles/display.php?id=27) is schooling us on "Since then I've been wondering if [he] was writing these scenes for reasons that had nothing to do with the stories being told"? John Byrne is saying this?

Incredible.

[bluefall.insanejournal.com]

Byrne seems to be very thorough and accurate in assessing the writing, editorial, and occasionally even personal failures of others in the industry. I suspect it is a level of keenness only achieved by the hypocrite, like recognizing like across the vastness of literary metaspace.

[arbre_rieur.insanejournal.com]

I agree with all of this except the "accurate" part. Most of Byrne's criticisms sound the jabs of a person who can't handle that others rival his success, to the point where he's constantly manufacturing reasons to say, "See, s/he doesn't get it the way I do." Where talking about someone who gets upset when Cyclops is shown missing his shot, because DAMMIT optic blasts don't work that way.

[sinisterlink.insanejournal.com]

Ick. I've read this before, but it seems to get skeezier everytime I read it. On a related note, I really wish I had a scanner so I could post that scene from The Pulse where Jessica Jones is having her baby and the thing with Carol's baby/rapist gets brought up.

[bluefall.insanejournal.com]

What, this (http://i32.tinypic.com/dcydfp.jpg)?

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

.....Wow, that's some heavy awkward.

[bluefall.insanejournal.com]

I still can't quite believe she'd just be like "hey, why don't you just tell Luke about your horrific, deeply personal violation so I can revel in my neurotic paranoia" like that. Carol's a better friend than Jessica deserves.

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

God, I think I actually cringed reading that. What the hell were they thinking?!

[foxhack.insanejournal.com]

(http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/foxhack/Macros/?action=view&current=pedroveryno.jpg)

(http://www.macrochan.org/view.php?u=BBR2TCFBJ53XGV5GO255D5SJXNNQ4BI5)

[stolisomancer.insanejournal.com]

This was one of the first stories that made me aware of what was going on behind the scenes at Marvel, mostly because of how righteously pissed off Claremont was about it. I honestly don't think you can post this without posting Claremont's follow-up from Avengers Annual #10, if only because of how fucking mad he was.

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

I would, except I don't have the pages. If someone has them and doesn't mind sending them to me, I'd be happy to add to this post or make a follow-up one (Or they could post them, that works too, and is less typing for me).

[perletwo.insanejournal.com]

Has anyone posted Carol's beautiful, beautiful smackdown on the A's from Annual #10 here in the New Place yet? I don't recall seeing it, and I've got it if there's a market for seeing it posted.

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

It hasn't been posted, I don't have it, and there've been two requests in the comments here, so it's all yours.

[perletwo.insanejournal.com]

On it, it'll be up as soon as my graphics program gets up and running so I can resize. *kicks Paint Shop Pro*

[perletwo.insanejournal.com]

The deed is done! (http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/819915.html)

[scottyquick.insanejournal.com]

Can anyone post the Annual?

Trying hard not to throw up here.

[perletwo.insanejournal.com]

The deed is done! (http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/819915.html)

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you so, so much!

i try, but no macro is truly sufficient for what is posted here

[bluefall.insanejournal.com]

Re: i try, but no macro is truly sufficient for what is posted here

[khamelea.insanejournal.com]

Operatic in magnitude!

[superfan1.insanejournal.com]

9 different levels of ew and so wrong

[interrobamf.insanejournal.com]

On the other hand, the last page of #199 is funny. With how bored and completely uninterested Wanda seems to be in the situation and how dramatically the doctor says "--THREE MONTHS PREGNANT!" Is that how he announces all of his diagnoses?

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

That'd be Don Blake, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's channeling a little of his alter-ego there.

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

Oh, whoops, wrong doctor. I got confused when you said 199. Yeah, I don't know what that guy's deal is.

[interrobamf.insanejournal.com]

Oh, sorry for the wrong issue number.

Greek Tragedies Assemble!

[proteus_lives.insanejournal.com]

This storyline could give 60's DC a run for crackiness.

[heat16.insanejournal.com]

Thats funny. I was thinking about this story arch only a few days ago. I wondered whatever happened to that kid.
Is he ever mentioned again?

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

He's mentioned as having died from his sped-up aging in the follow-up perletwo posted, but writers have been thankfully keeping him to barest mentions since then, and have been merciful enough to not resurrect him.

[bluefall.insanejournal.com]

Busiek does a thing later where she encounters an AU Marcus who sort of falls in love with her but is not a douche about it. She's intensely wary of him at first but eventually realizes that he's not the Marcus she knew and manages to come to respect him as a comrade, though not a friend. I'm really not sure what Busiek was going for - the wider arc suggests he was looking to provide some closure on the whole long-term "Carol vs Avengers" conflict, including the original Marcus incident, but if so, he pretty much achieved the opposite. I'm never sure what to think about that story. It's quite tastefully and well-done on its own merit, but on a meta level and given the cultural context I'm not sure it's an excusable story choice in the first place.

[tahngarth.insanejournal.com]

I'll just echo what everyone else has said. Jim Shooter had "special" ideas about comics (he also had Thor mind-controlled and raped by Moondragon, if I recall right) and through some sort of nether sorcery managed to concoct the worst possible story for Avengers #200.

Landmark issues -indeed-

And this started the long-standing tradition of using Carol Danvers as a universal punching bag.

[requiem2adream.insanejournal.com]

EWWWWWWW! *points at icon*

I've not seen that before, though I'd heard about it. I wish I'd never done either.

[galateus.insanejournal.com]

So, so wrong. Bonus link to Carol Strickland's essay? (http://www.carolastrickland.com/comics/msmarvel/)

And huh, apparently not only were the Avengers were insensitive morons, but Jocasta-bot was living up to her incestuous name long before she started wanting to mack on her creator's creator.

Somebody else's meme

[ashtoreth.insanejournal.com]

(http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Lamashtar/?action=view&current=marcus_wept.jpg)

*hysterical laughter *

[jazzypom.insanejournal.com]

That is... yeah. Every time I read this, this is my face -> :/'

Jan is all, "You've a beautiful baby!" and "Yeah, I'd be in a rubber room too, c'mon let's go and meet your kid." 0.o

What?

And then he comes hunting for a lady to imprint himself on and they allowed Carol to leave? Even if she'd wanted to, I'd have thrown her into a containment chamber for her own good. Whoa, just whoa.

[jarodrussell.insanejournal.com]

What is it about super-powered blonds and fast-aging pregnancies that give comic writers hard-ons? Ms. Marvel and Power Girl both went through this crap.