[identity profile] 04nbod.insanejournal.com posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Ignore the red narration boxes, they are irrelevant.

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Remember what Alfred taught you Bruce, when you cheat you only cheat yourself.

(Its sad Val is dead again, I want a re-match in LOSH. They wouldn't have Batman lose in JLA although I'm impressed they acknowledged Val is better)

Date: 2009-08-24 03:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shanejayell.insanejournal.com
He fought the Threeboot KK too. Was cooler IMHO.

Date: 2009-08-24 04:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] halloweenjack.insanejournal.com
When KK is accusing Bruce of cheating, that's because Bruce kicked him in the nuts? Oh, Val. Stay the hell away from our dirty dirty century.

Date: 2009-08-24 06:27 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
That always sounded like an oxymoron at best. The point of fighting is to survive until the next one and outside of tournaments you're not going to get points or have rules for what you can or cannot do. Besides, if you didn't think to wear a cup it's your own damn fault if you can no longer make children.

Date: 2009-08-24 10:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dr_hermes.insanejournal.com
Yeah, it's completely wrong to think someone who has mastered full-contact martial arts (let alone any number of styles as Karate Kid has) wouldn't have learned to defend against a front kick to the groin from the very start. The idea that "dirty fighting" is a secret seems naive.

Date: 2009-08-24 06:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] schala_kid.insanejournal.com
Jason did it to Dick and Tim did it to Jason, the Bat-family has mastered the art of ball-kicking.

Date: 2009-08-24 09:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] halloweenjack.insanejournal.com
And now we know the real reason why Stephanie couldn't continue as Robin--no chance for reciprocation.

Date: 2009-08-24 11:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sd_mouser.insanejournal.com
Sure there's a chance of reciprocity. But before you kick Stephanie in the 'nads you gotta find Tim!

Date: 2009-08-24 06:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] schala_kid.insanejournal.com
Val is definitely the best fighter in the DC universe, and to my knowledge he's also the only Legionnaire without powers.

I love Bruce reaction about Val being 3 points higher than him, the way he quickly stops talking when he finds the data I bet in his mind he literally went "WTF Clark?!" also in the panel before he's interrupted by Val, where he says "I'm listed--" it looks like he's pouting.

Date: 2009-08-24 07:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] omgwtflolbbqbye.insanejournal.com
I can totally see Bruce and Clark having a editwar on the Justice League wikipedia.

Date: 2009-08-24 08:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] volksjager.insanejournal.com
Totally LOL !

Date: 2009-08-24 07:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] volksjager.insanejournal.com
I have to go with Bats on this one. No one could beat him in combat. I wish DC had done more with the post IC of Batman and co. taking the "year off" to re-build the Batman and show more of his fighting tech. and philosophy. Perhaps like the Superman "New Krypton", seem like they knew Bruce would be put on a shelf after FC and just dropped it.

Date: 2009-08-24 08:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] killermoth1.insanejournal.com
I'm so sick of Bats being the invincible hero of DC. He's apparently not just the world's greatest detective at this point, but also the world's greatest martial artist, strategist and smartest.

He's one of my favourite heroes but he just keeps degenerating into Batgod, to the point where rather than reaching a thematic finale Morrison's RIP storyline's entire point was "no one can beat Batman!". Even Bruce Timm wasn't immune to putting Batman front stage in Justice League. Frankly I'd prefer something a little less exciting that doesn't pander to the immature masses that scream "Batman can beat anyone with or without prep time!".

Date: 2009-08-24 08:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] volksjager.insanejournal.com
For instance I like how in JLA/ Avengers Captain America (who I would say HAS to be the best hand-to-hand fighter in the Marvel universe) and Batman realize from basic posture and stance that they are too evenly matched to beat each other. Everything has a god, it's just human nature to create rankings...

Date: 2009-08-24 10:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dr_hermes.insanejournal.com
It's an article of faith with Batman fans that he's the best at everything (Doc Savage in a cape). But, just speaking personally, I would like to see him played up more as a detective than a martial artist. He could still be very good, able to hold his own against most fighters... but most of his energy should be going into solving crimes by deduction and finding clues, rather than hand-to-hand. I'd see Batman as someone who prefers to maneuver his enemies into capture rather than slugging it out with them. And having him over his head against a top martial artist wouldn't diminish him, in my opinion, just make him a more workable character. But I'm usually in a minority.

Date: 2009-08-24 11:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] volksjager.insanejournal.com
Personally, I would say that point was resolved in the first Batman the animated movie , where Bruce is able to solve the crime and get the bad guys,but notices he they are not afraid of him.

He has to be super kick ass just to scare the shit out of the street vermin to drop it all when he appears.

It also makes the point when Bane breaks his back and hold Bats up to the spotlight saying he beat him.

Date: 2009-08-24 11:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dr_hermes.insanejournal.com
It's a matter of preference. I would say that if Batman kept sending criminal after criminal to jail and they couldn't stop him, then they would certainly be afraid of him. Not because he would beat them up but because, once he got after them, they would be certain to go to jail. But different readers have different preferences.

Date: 2009-08-24 11:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] volksjager.insanejournal.com
Well, like you said it was a preference, I tend to go with the " a superstitious cowardly lot ".

Date: 2009-08-25 02:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dr_hermes.insanejournal.com
There you go. We can order different items from the menu at the restaurant and still enjoy dinner.

Date: 2009-08-24 11:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jelly_ace.insanejournal.com
Well, maybe Bats would not be the greatest martial artist. But that coupled with his fast mental skills and strategy skills, maybe he's got a better edge against his opponents?

Date: 2009-08-24 11:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dr_hermes.insanejournal.com
Absolutely. He doesn't have to be able to slug it out with the world's best fighters to capture them. Trickiness, weaponry, strategy are better than sheer fighting skill in the long run. Hunters bag tigers without wrestling with them, after all.

Date: 2009-08-25 03:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dustbunny105.insanejournal.com
This. I always associated Batman more with trickiness, weaponry and strategy than head-on hand-to-hand combat skills. Sure, he's a great fighter, but he's vengence, the night; he's the fear that keeps you awake, the shadow on the wall, the monster it becomes, the nightmare in your skull. His entire entire persona is based around criminals being a superstitious, cowardly lot. It seems to me that some guy who runs around in a silly costume beating thugs up plays into that to a much lower level than a guy who stalks around in a silly costume and might just walk out of the darkness of what is meant to be a safe space because he knows how to find you and can beat you into a pulp if he has to.

Date: 2009-08-25 06:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yaseen101.insanejournal.com
I always viewed that ninjutsu, kung fu and boxing being Bruce's forte while stuff like Karate and Judo being the things he knows the basic concept of rather than being a master of. I always viewed him, like you said, someone who uses trickery, weaponry and strategy when fighting but I also imagine that he is also a slight of hand type that at first sight when you throw a punch makes you think that he is catching it but switches at the last moment suddenly dodges it and karate chops your neck or something.

Point.

Date: 2009-08-24 09:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thanekos.insanejournal.com
Gratuitious Pic Counterpoint (http://i26.tinypic.com/sgikad.jpg)

Re: Point.

Date: 2009-08-24 11:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] volksjager.insanejournal.com
Hopefully some will post the KK LOSH issue where to pass the test he has to beat Superboy (hint , hint).

Date: 2009-08-24 09:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dr_hermes.insanejournal.com
See, this is what I mean about not every artist being good at storytelling. The coloring is pretty, there are nice computerized toning effects. But what is going on. When Batman blocks Karate Kid's blow, what direction is the Kid's hand coming from? Does Batman deflect that shuto, then draw back the same arm to throw a punch before the Kid can react? Come on.

The two panels where the Karate Kid is taken out are vague as hell. Batman's dialogue suggests he was faking an injury and putting his weight on the other leg so he could get his opponent off guard. The next panel shows the Kid getting hurt someone and there's a vague effect that could be suggesting impact (like Batman has kicked Karate Kid in the stomach or lower.)

But the next panel shows Black Lightning standing behind the fallen Kid. As someone noted above, there is a nimbus around the Kid's feet. Did Black Lightning stun him somehow? Did Batman get a martial arts master with such an obvious trick and a sucker punch? It's not clear and neither dialogue nor captions offer clarity.

Lots of the older artists were not as glossy or pretty, but they knew how to show what was going on. They knew how to lead the reader's eyes from one panel to the next, and they knew how to show movement.

I thought

Date: 2009-08-24 11:48 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
That it was obvious Black Lightning attacked from behind.

Karate Kid actually won that fight.

Re: I thought

Date: 2009-08-25 04:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zordboy.insanejournal.com
Except for the whole 'winding up unconscious' thing.

Date: 2009-08-24 11:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jelly_ace.insanejournal.com
I was expecting Bats against Ralph Macchio. Or Hilary Swank.



Date: 2009-08-25 03:34 am (UTC)
kingrockwell: he's a sexy (Babs Gordon)
From: [personal profile] kingrockwell
The movies actually had to pay DC for the right to use the name.

Date: 2009-08-25 12:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ninjapeps.insanejournal.com
Remember what Alfred taught you Bruce, when you cheat you only cheat yourself.

"Wong Fei's most important lesson: when outmatched, cheat."
-Batman to Bronze Tiger, Brave and the Bold episode 11

Date: 2009-08-25 12:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pi216.insanejournal.com
There's no cheating; there's just 'assessment of what you can afford to lose in order to win'.

Date: 2009-08-25 01:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lieut_kettch.insanejournal.com
I like his fight with Val-Prime better. Especially since Val is constantly vacillating between hero worship and contempt for Bats.

Date: 2009-08-25 01:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] batcookies.insanejournal.com
I despise "Batman is the best martial artist in the DCU" writing at the best of times, but having him hold his own against a guy whose martial arts make him nearly Superman-like takes the cake.

Date: 2009-08-25 02:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bluefall.insanejournal.com
I'm kind of stuck here - on the one hand, Uber Kung Fu Batman is hateful and I want him to go away. On the other hand, Val drives me kind of insane too. "My kung fu makes me Superman" isn't disgusting enough when it's dragging down Batman, they had to make an entire character built around that premise? And make him a jackass? I don't know who I want to lose miserably more.

Date: 2009-08-25 02:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dr_hermes.insanejournal.com
What's "disgusting" about a character using advanced martial arts as a super-power? Do you feel that way about Cassandra Cain?

Date: 2009-08-25 04:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zordboy.insanejournal.com
Yeah, don't mind me. I loved that scene, I for one really enjoy Batman as martial arts god. It's not that he has the pure skills, but the *other* stuff rattling around in Batman's brain, the strategy and tactical stuff and the ability to think quickly in an emergency, *combined* with the sheer skill, is what makes him so deadly in hand-to-hand.

Date: 2009-08-25 02:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] geoffsebesta.insanejournal.com
I love the old 70s Karate Kid stuff, where they stopped in the middle of fights to explain exactly which future-judo move he was gonna use to whale on somebody, so I think he can take anyone.

Plus this fight is weak as hell. It's not just the storytelling in the art, it's the damn dumb dialogue and the nut punch. Seriously, Karate Kid is used to fighting aliens who have no objective but to attack the most vulnerable point on a human, which is that. Terrible.

Batman's tough enough to survive in the JLA with no powers. Karate Kid's tough enough to survive in the Legion. The Legion is probably the best fighting force ever assembled in comics (at least four Superman-powered people, Braniac 5, and Element Lad, plus eighty of their closest friends and Bouncing Boy....)

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