a_clericalerror: (Default)
[personal profile] a_clericalerror posting in [community profile] scans_daily
PG's boob window? It's empowering or a symbol placeholder or something.
Helena's bare abs? She worked out a lot.
Wonder Woman's whole ensemble?

It has been explained before with the Diana Trevor story, though I guess a tip of the hat to a woman who gave her life to aid them wasn't good enough. Really drilling that in with Hippolyta wearing the flag in the scene right before this yet dropping the connection in favor of some coincidental weather and a few stars that might be Cassiopeia.

For a moment there I almost thought this was closer to the present day, ignoring the sudden break in the story, and they might actually be trashing the swim suit in favor of something less ridiculous.

Silly, optimism. Sensible clothing is for kids* (and men).

*If you know of something that contradicts this, please don't tell me. I don't want to know.
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Date: 2010-04-26 06:11 pm (UTC)
grazzt: (Default)
From: [personal profile] grazzt
"Silly, optimism. Sensible clothing is for kids* (and men).

*If you know of something that contradicts this, please don't tell me. I don't want to know."

Sorry, but this is just too obvious:

Dick Grayson as Robin.

Date: 2010-04-26 06:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lady-mondegreen.insanejournal.com
That be some wacky weather. And Cassiopeia is inspirational to the Amazons because she was so vain in her beauty that the gods punished her by chaining her daughter to a rock to be eaten by a sea monster? Or was it her going back on her deal for Perseus to marry her daughter after he saved her from the monster, and in the resulting battle got to stone after seeing the head of Medusa?

Date: 2010-04-26 06:34 pm (UTC)
mullon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mullon
Everyone's bored with Pictionary night.

Date: 2010-04-26 06:39 pm (UTC)
bluefall: Wonder Girl facepalming (facepalm Cassie)
From: [personal profile] bluefall
Also: is that supposed to be Io?

Also also, I was trying to be good, but that line is just too facile to let it go: if a woman who looks like she "wants" to fight surely will, is it not also true that a woman who looks like she wants to sell her body surely will as well? I mean, if we're using modern Western standards and all.

Date: 2010-04-26 06:39 pm (UTC)
galateus: (AFO Baby)
From: [personal profile] galateus
Wait, wait, wait...



So that's where the colors come from, but why a bikini?

Date: 2010-04-26 06:57 pm (UTC)
nikeskylark: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nikeskylark


Date: 2010-04-26 07:00 pm (UTC)
protogarrett: (Default)
From: [personal profile] protogarrett
Can we settle on WW simply saying, "I designed it back in the 50's. Deal with it."

Or, god forbid, DC just finally settles on making her a new costume and making fans just deal with it.

Date: 2010-04-26 07:03 pm (UTC)
seriousfic: (COBRAAAAAAA!)
From: [personal profile] seriousfic
Good thing there wasn't a full moon out.

I need an 'awful pun' icon.

Date: 2010-04-26 07:23 pm (UTC)
crabby_lioness: (Default)
From: [personal profile] crabby_lioness
Isn't Simone supposed to be a good writer?

Date: 2010-04-26 07:25 pm (UTC)
sailorlibra: (gl)
From: [personal profile] sailorlibra
Plot schmot, there's Nicola Scott art! That's all I need.

Date: 2010-04-26 07:27 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] aegof
See, I can understand the logic behind not wanting your champion/ambassador going out looking like to axe the world into better shape. That kind of apparent defensiveness is probably not a good way to make friends!

And I guess this is Simone's way of defending the bathing suit. It's still a bathing suit, though. And looking at the thing Pallas designed there and what the others are wearing makes it even harder to believe the bathing suit could've come out of Themyscira.

The suit might make more sense if we pretend Hippolyta left Themyscira for WW2 and assume she based it on the heroes she met then? I mean, so long as we're retconning stuff.
(I have been pretending this for like a year.)

Yeah, no.

Date: 2010-04-26 07:54 pm (UTC)
nefrekeptah: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nefrekeptah
Every time someone tries to explain Wondy's outfit, they always hit a brick wall of "but why is it a swimsuit?!"

Besides that, though, this is some very good writing. I especially like Diana's last line; "I am politely and diplomatically informing you that I am about to kick your ass."

Date: 2010-04-26 09:08 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] 20thcenturyvole
Funnily enough, Ancient Greece lost the letter 'W' sometime before Homer wrote down The Iliad - the letter was phased out of the alphabet, and then the sound disappeared from the language entirely.

I don't know why that's the plot hole that most jumps out at me, but there you go.

Date: 2010-04-26 10:29 pm (UTC)
retro_nouveau: AARP Bruce (97)
From: [personal profile] retro_nouveau
Let's face it, there's no chance that the costume is changing. Explaining it further away from the flag of a foreign nation is a positive step for me. Picky bastard that I am, I want Diana in black biker shorts with white stars now. But I imagine it could have started out as white stars on a black field, but Polly said, no, let's make the stars so bright they shine on well into the new morning.

The thing that enrages me is when the costume shrinks so that her cheeks are hanging out, or you can see that she must have had a waxing a few hours earlier. I seem to notice especially when Benes does the art for the Justice League and Diana is featured. I think I can say that none of the artists for Gail's run have had Diana hanging out of the suit, and for that I'm very grateful.

Another thing that bugs me to no end is when home cities are destroyed. Never happens to Metropolis or Gotham, but it's coming up at the start of Straczynski's run for Themiscyra. To me it's like someone decided to blow up the 2500-year-old Parthenon a hundred times over. So dropping this after 600.

Date: 2010-04-26 11:04 pm (UTC)
cygna_hime: Athena is a feminist bitch (Feminist Classicist Bitch)
From: [personal profile] cygna_hime
I'm sorry, points for trying, but no. No, that just does not work.

(First, what the fuck is Hippolyta wearing in that first bit? A more modern-day nightgown I have seldom seen.)

If you want to send a warrior, dress her in FULL ACTUAL ARMOR THAT WORKS. Not a titsplate (as distinct from a breastplate in that the latter covers the entire chest, while the former stops just in time for the cleavage). If you want to send a diplomat, then you doll her up in the most damn imposing peplos and himation you've got, jewelry to taste. (That's the time for the tiara.) If you want to fuse the two, then you make some effort at fusing the two -- say, with a nice himation to go over the armor, whatever warriors wear at formal non-military functions, the cultural equivalent of dress blues and ceremonial sword, that kind of thing.

You do NOT under any circumstances decide on a)a breastplate that leaves the whole upper chest bare and stabbable, b)panties that...have no reason to exist whatsoever, and c)neither any other armor pieces nor any other distinctively Greek/Amazon garments. It doesn't make any SENSE. What are the Amazons trying to say with this outfit? No other Amazon ever wears anything like it, so there's no sense that she's presenting an image of their culture.

It doesn't say anything, in fact, as an Amazon. And since the only possible justification for, say, the flagrant lack of either a proper chiton or some pants if you want to stretch a point, would be that there was some cultural tradition or message attached, there's no justification for the star-spangled swimsuit either. (When your woman warrior looks weirder and more designed for mocking than the actual Greek images of Amazons, you've got problems. Peplos + breastplate, people! Not that hard!)

Date: 2010-04-26 11:21 pm (UTC)
pyrotwilight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pyrotwilight
Pfff. Just say Io drew it and really wanted to see her in it.

Date: 2010-04-26 11:24 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] theanswer
I point you to Tim Gunn's rational response to Power Girl's ensemble and rebuttal to naysayers.

Date: 2010-04-26 11:45 pm (UTC)
punishermax: (Default)
From: [personal profile] punishermax
"Do we need better inspiration than this!?"

~dramatic flourish to sky~

Utter silence

"..yes? I mean...the fuck is that supposed to give us? I mean..respectfully?"

"The stars! We must create a bikini bottom with stars on the crotch!"

"God..why do we even try? First the fucking bee weapon.."


"Then we take fashion advice from a nebula. Jesus Christ what next, are we going to invade the United States?"

"......I...I think that will be all..."

Date: 2010-04-27 12:05 am (UTC)
ravenous_raven: Combo headshot of Cass Cain, Steph Brown, and Babs Gordon, the 3 Batgirls, "Bow to the Goddammned Batgirls" in a corner (No Fighting!)
From: [personal profile] ravenous_raven
Guys, just keep in mind that Wonder Woman was designed way back in the 1940's when her creator thought she was ground-breaking and a symbol of "sexual equality". Feminism changes over the years. I give any writer props for trying to explain the now-iconical outfit that I seriously doubt DC will greatly change.

On the flip side, for those more imaginative than I, how would you explain the costume? Without changing it, unfortunately (see above about iconical outfit).

Date: 2010-04-27 12:23 am (UTC)
alienist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] alienist
...Am I the only one who really like Io's first design?

Date: 2010-04-27 12:47 am (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
Yeah I mean obviously they couldn't reference the stars and moon and whatever on a good costume that makes sense.

Date: 2010-04-27 01:08 am (UTC)
cmdr_zoom: (oops)
From: [personal profile] cmdr_zoom
At this point, I wish we could finally toss the swimsuit and put her in a breastplate and pteryges. For real. Forever.

Date: 2010-04-27 02:37 am (UTC)
demonprawn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] demonprawn
Greeks would never send there soldiers into battle with a bathing suit and only boots, bracers and some head protection.
...oh wait
Well the more civilised romans...
well maybe Marvel shows more sensibility with their ancient Greeks.
Guess I don't see the big deal of an Ancient Greek style hero with some what "Spartan" dress sence
....pun intended.

Date: 2010-04-27 05:51 am (UTC)
richardak: (Default)
From: [personal profile] richardak
More problematically, from a story pov, it is baffling and inexplicable
to newer readers. People ask, why is Diana dressed in the American flag?
And if you have to trot out the Diana Trevor story, believe me, you've already
lost them. It only works in full context--even in truncated flashback it's
extremely ornate and confusing. More importantly, I think there's some
poetry in saying that Diana is a creature of the heavens, and her
outfit represents it the way a frieze represents a culture. It's kind
of something that can't easily be unheard...once you think of the
eagle and the stars and Cassiopeia in that context, I think a lot
of baggage is removed pretty painlessly. It doesn't take away
the Trevor story...but it also makes Diana less exclusively
American, which has been a storytelling problem since before the
Perez issues. An ambassador to the world should not favor only
one nation. If she'd been wearing the hammer and crescent, or
a Muslim flag, how would the rest of the world see her, and could she
really do her mission of peace wearing those colors?

Since I am not, and and cannot imagine ever being a Wonder Woman fan, take this only for what it's worth: I think the above comment is wrong-headed. Trying to explain Wonder Woman's costume as being something other than that she's wearing a stylized American flag will not and can not ever work. As I understand it, the original explanation that Marston offered was that she wore an American flag because she had adopted America as her country, and wanted to be an American hero. That's the only explanation that makes any real sense and doesn't feel forced and contrived.

If you don't want Wonder Woman to do that, if you want her to be a globalist, internationalist hero, so be it, but the classic costume is never going to work with that interpretation of the character. On top of which, it will always come across as obnoxious to some Americans. For a hero who identifies with America and America's cause, to wear our banner honors it. From a character who does not identify with our country and our cause, it comes across as mockery. No rationalization will help that situation.
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