([identity profile] wrote in [community profile] scans_daily2009-04-11 04:19 pm


Lately, with all of the other Archie posts, the question was raised, "Was Archie always a Christian dickweed?".
The answer is NO, he's usually a secular dickweed.

from BETTY AND VERONICA #39, November 1958

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 04:36 pm (UTC)(link)
I kind of want to see Regular Archie get in a fight with Christian Archie. That would be interesting.

Re: Peur Evol: (laughing)

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 05:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Well they already did Civil Chores!

Re: Peur Evol: (laughing)

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 06:16 pm (UTC)(link)
a fanfic writer named DarkMark did something like that.

It had Kang the Conqueror(or maybe Immortus) guest-starring and their were all sorts of characters appearing besides the normal Archie crew, who had just graduated high school. Red Andrews and the Challengers of the Unknown, January McAndrews. He got to see some of the Christian Archie and some parodies that appeared in a pornographic mag(Starchie?).

It ended up with the New Archies characters just beginning their high school career.

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 04:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Man, what a DICK. Why is Betty so dumb as to keep following a jerk like that? She's so much better than him! ;_;

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 05:01 pm (UTC)(link)
I dunno, I think they're all assholes. Except for maybe Jughead.

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 05:04 pm (UTC)(link)
True. Generally he only does something jerkish when someone (usually Reggie) is a jerk to him first.

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 06:55 pm (UTC)(link)
I firmly believe that Jughead is the normal one among all of them.


[identity profile] 2009-04-11 05:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Because she hasn't met Dilton yet.

Really, I can't think of any other reason.


[identity profile] 2009-04-11 07:23 pm (UTC)(link)
More like she hasn't fallen for Debbie from that Spirchie comic down the page... those two had chemistry.


[identity profile] 2009-04-12 08:46 am (UTC)(link)
I think there were a few stories where they might have gone on dates together, usually as a back-up prom date kind of thing. But Dilton's first love will always be knowledge.

I gotta admit I was more of a Betty/Jughead person. They're both smart, even tempered, Jughead is anti-girly girl and Betty is (most of the time portrayed as) a tomboy, and they both know what it's like to be ditched for Veronica!

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 05:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Geez, look at Betty in that splash panel. If Archie was a real teenager, he'd have her up in his room before the dust settled.

But the three of them are trapped in a timeless purgatory where no progress is ever made and nothing is ever settled. I've always thought that if Archie or Betty or Veronica ever got an inkling that they've been playing musical heartbreak since the 1940s, never getting older or wiser, it would be a horrifying revelation worthy of an EC story.

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 06:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I'd love to read something like that.

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 12:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Ha! I would love to read that!

What if this *were* a Spire Archie story?

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 05:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Archie: Don't be sinful, Betty! It's too licentious at the beach! I say Bible study!

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 07:42 pm (UTC)(link)
I confess I've never once seen the appeal of the Archie characters. They're just so... dull and lifeless. And the main character sets my teeth on edge.

It's the same sort of thing as "Everybody Loves Raymond", where the main character is flat and irritating, but is surrounded by people who either love him for no obvious reason, or are such extreme caricatures they're almosy universally beyond caring about.

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 08:32 pm (UTC)(link)
It's a strip that's sleepwalking through the undead existence of a zombie. Back in the 1940s, ARCHIE had some broad slapstick, slightly risque jokes and a bit of Good Girl art. But it's been coasting along as a safe, bland warm-milk-and-toast pablum for decades. That seems to be what a lot of people will buy, though.

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 09:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I think that the blandness really set in during the 70's. That's when the edge (such as it was) vanished. There have been a few good stories since then, though. Few and far between, but they were there.

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 08:56 pm (UTC)(link)
I confess I've never once seen the appeal of the Archie characters. They're just so... dull and lifeless.

I think it's all a matter of taste. I still read Archie and so does my mom. I would never argue that the stories are good, but most are adorable in their badness.

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 10:06 pm (UTC)(link)
It's the blandness that's Archie's biggest selling point. Archie comics are perfectly clean and spotless, making them the ideal funny-books for middle-American white-bread parents to bring home to their good little offspring.

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 10:41 pm (UTC)(link)
The Betty and Veronica digests got me though many a long, boring car trip when I was 8-9, so I can attest to that.

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 08:39 am (UTC)(link)
Me too! I enjoyed Betty and Veronica's friendship, which could be strained even when Archie wasn't around.

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 05:36 am (UTC)(link)
At least in the UK, our kids comics like the Dandy and the Beano had a somewhat anarchic streak, like OUR Dennis the Menace (Not to be confused with his saccharine US namesake), the Bash Street Kids, or Minnie the Minx!

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 07:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh Archie, you don't know how much I want to smash your stupid redhead humanity against a wall.

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 10:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh that archie such a lovable jerk, I'm surprise none of the girls haven't snap yet with all the run around that still happens with him.

[identity profile] 2009-04-11 11:43 pm (UTC)(link)
*Looks at Veronica's dress*

I think I own that napkin set.

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 12:07 am (UTC)(link)
So this is why Betty and Veronica are always getting together in fanfic; Archie is like Oliver Queen without the interesting facial hair.

Lantis or Eagle > Betty or Veronica

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 12:39 am (UTC)(link)
This is why I have never understood how any girl could ever read and enjoy Archie. Two gorgeous babes hurl themselves repeatedly at a bland dweeb for no discernable reason: does that sound like a FEMALE fantasy? NO.

It does sound familiar though: the plot of every shounen harem series Japan ever pumped out.

Girls, sweeties, to the five of you who haven't already figured this out: SHOUJO MANGA. Here, go ahead, you can borrow some of mine. CLAMP, Yuu Watase, whatever. Remember, the choice of Brunet or Blond should be YOURS, not his.

Re: Lantis or Eagle > Betty or Veronica

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 03:53 am (UTC)(link)
Ah, but it is a female fantasy. Maybe not yours, but many women just love "poor me" stories where the heroine suffers and weeps privately over how badly she's treated. Look at all the LIFETIME TV-movies and romance novels and soap operas where the sweet blameless heroine is betrayed or misused or unappreciated. That's the appeal of these stories, "I too am treated so badly." There's a big market for that kind of story.

Re: Lantis or Eagle > Betty or Veronica

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 05:37 am (UTC)(link)
Do we know what the gender split is in Archie sales?

Re: Lantis or Eagle > Betty or Veronica

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 05:40 am (UTC)(link)
Also at a slight sidenote, I was browsing through a remaindered bookshop the other day, and I dunno about the US, but in the UK these places tend to be a slightly more fun than the big chains. This was confirmed by the sub-section of Biography just labelled "Crap Childhoods", which seems to be a growth industry these days.

Re: Lantis or Eagle > Betty or Veronica

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 10:46 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, but in those stories, isn't the asshole hero usually a magnificent monster? He's really hot, or really talented, or really brilliant, or really, really hot?

If the asshole boyfriend/husband IS a boring schlub, then the fantasy usually comes from her escaping him (either permanently or temporarily) for someone who is many times more AWESOME and also hot.

Archie isn't good-looking. He's also not a brilliant athlete, a talented artist, or a genius student. Neither does he have a "beautiful soul." He's a horny scrawny freckled kid who is consistently mediocre-at-best in all things. I can actually understand the Mistreated Maiden fantasy (though you're right, it's not my personal kick), but why would anybody want to fantasize about being mistreated by someone DULL?

Re: Lantis or Eagle > Betty or Veronica

[identity profile] 2009-04-13 01:50 am (UTC)(link)
You're misreading the psychology of the situation - one of the reasons Archie has stayed popular all these years is that it manages to appeal to both the male (heterosexual male, anyway) AND female fantasies.
I think it's absolutely true that there's an element of Mistreated Maiden (as you put it) about Betty and Veronica - but as for your question about how could anyone fantasize about being mistreated by Archie - well, that's where the male fantasies start kicking in.
Archie, you see, is an interesting character, because he is everyteen. He's not great-looking, but he's not ugly, he's not super-talented at anything, but he has his moments, and while he's not an outright nerd, he's not Mr. Cool, either - which is presumably how he gets along with such a varied group of friends. In short, he is designed to appeal to the average teenage male - or, more realistically, for young boys who look forward to being the average teenage male - because everyone, at some point, has felt like a bit of a klutz or a spaz, just like Archie, but they like to think of themselves as reasonably popular and good-looking - again, just like Archie. By staying determinedly middle-of-the-road, he keeps his target audience's attention - and just for good measure, he's got two gorgeous girls fighting over him! Hubba hubba! Archie is not there for girls, even fictional ones, to fantasize about (although they do), he's there for boys to fantasize about being him - because, on a certain level, they already ARE him.

Re: Lantis or Eagle > Betty or Veronica

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 01:21 pm (UTC)(link)
To be fair, there's a lot of shojo manga that has even more problematic relationships and female characters than Archie (And sorry to say, CLAMP and Yuu Watase are in that list), and while yes, there are a lot of stories that center around Archie choosing either Betty or Veronica to the despair of the other, there are also a ton of stories where both Betty and Veronica dump him, stories where Betty is shown as a very independent woman, Veronica makes her own choices, and Archie is a decent human being.

Hell, if I remember right, in the dreadful made for TV movie, it was clear that Archie ended up with neither, and both women were quite happy and successful with their lives, even if for the duration of the movie they returned to the old triangle dynamic.

Sure, it's not for everyone, but there is a bit more to Archie than there is to your run of the mill harem series.

Re: Lantis or Eagle > Betty or Veronica

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 05:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, Archie occasionally has Betty and Veronica stepping out of their usual roles, especially these days, and props for that. But they keep going back to them, because this is Archie, and nothing can be allowed to change too much.

And status quo is that Betty and Veronica are both gaga for Archie, even though they are attractive and remarkable (Ronnie wealthy and sophisticated, Betty smart and kind and active in her community), and he is... not. At all.

And that really really bugs me, for some reason. Shoujo manga has it's own issues, OH MY GOD does it have issues. But at least the guys, while occasionally douchebaggy and messed up, are at least recognizably female fantasy objects. They exist for the female heroines and for the female readers. Not the other way around.

Re: Lantis or Eagle > Betty or Veronica

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 06:56 pm (UTC)(link)
But the fact is that the male characters in a lot of shojo exist not just as the female fantasy object, but as the stand in for what *Every single female must want or her life won't be worth a damn*. Especially in modern shojo. sure, you get the odd Utena from time to time, but in a sense, many shojo heroines only live to get married to a cute guy. Not to mention, that many of them only live to be *saved* by said cute guy.

Re: Lantis or Eagle > Betty or Veronica

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 03:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Yuu Watase? Didn't she have the female lead of Fushigi Yuugi get almost-raped, like, every Tuesday or summat?

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 02:41 pm (UTC)(link)
and there's more to the situation.

Image (

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 02:50 pm (UTC)(link)
And at the top of the pyramid, secretly manipulating everyone, is...Mr. Svenson.

By yiminy.

[identity profile] 2009-04-12 04:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Why does it look like to me that veronica about to bite chess piece archie head off lol?

[identity profile] 2009-04-13 09:18 pm (UTC)(link)
This sort of thing is why I don't bother with Archie comics anymore. I used to get them because the stories tended to be so bad they were adorable and actually could be pretty fun. I remember at least two stories in which Archie was a decent human being (neither of which involved the girls, incidentally). Plus, Jughead. But the Love Triangle is just too freaking much. I always preferred the stories that were about Betty and Veronica, or had Betty dating Jughead or Reggie or Dilton or even Jason Blossom.