goggle_kid: (Pretty Cure WTF?)
goggle_kid ([personal profile] goggle_kid) wrote in [community profile] scans_daily2010-06-07 02:20 am

More DC Race Fail

Dave Brothers Beat Me To This One

More of Ian Sattler at the the Heroes Con DC Nation panel.

"A serious topic came up about how characters who are minorities who happened to be legacy characters like Ryan Choi are killed off so their caucasian counterparts can return and how they feel like they are being cheated or sidelined out of their roles. Sattler took a more serious tone. "It's so hard for me to be on the other side because it's not our intention. There is a reason behind it all. We don't see it that way and strive very hard to have a diverse DCU. I mean, we have green, pink, and blue characters. We have the Great Ten out there and I have counter statistics, but I won't get into that. It's not how we perceived it. We get the same thing about how we treat our female characters."

bluefall: Wonder Girl facepalming (facepalm Cassie)

[personal profile] bluefall 2010-06-07 06:37 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, Mr Sattler, you're colorblind. We know. That's precisely the problem.
bluefall: Bees. My God. (Bees. My God.)

[personal profile] bluefall 2010-06-07 06:42 am (UTC)(link)

"We get the same thing about how we treat our female characters."

Epic lulz.
magnetic_regina: Lazin' in a flower (Default)

[personal profile] magnetic_regina 2010-06-07 06:59 am (UTC)(link)
That's not a good thing.
bluefall: Circe laughing like a loon (evil laugh)

[personal profile] bluefall 2010-06-07 07:03 am (UTC)(link)
"I got a speeding ticket. It's weird. I'm a good driver. I got pulled over for running a red light last week too."
magnetic_regina: Lazin' in a flower (Default)

[personal profile] magnetic_regina 2010-06-07 07:05 am (UTC)(link)

It reminds me of when the Australian Government complained that Google wouldn't censor the Internet for them. They do it for China!
brilliantnova: (Default)

[personal profile] brilliantnova 2010-06-07 09:00 am (UTC)(link)
Wait what!! this statement is pure gold.
Hello white male privilege, your backpack is stuffed X-D
ext_423749: (Default)

[identity profile] spockfran.livejournal.com 2010-06-07 06:43 am (UTC)(link)
oh wow
I see
So....you admit that this perception is out there but disregard it because you dont feel the same way.
Stay Classy DC
q99: (Default)

[personal profile] q99 2010-06-07 07:48 am (UTC)(link)
Yea. The two side-by-side has really taught me that you can't decide what books to run and cancel on your personal preferences. I mean, you can keep them in mind, but you can't go against the audience or sales to do so without consequences.
q99: (Default)

[personal profile] q99 2010-06-07 08:16 pm (UTC)(link)
It was Marvel acting like DC, only on they're largest property.
autolychus2: (Default)

[personal profile] autolychus2 2010-06-08 12:21 am (UTC)(link)
It's been about 30 years since Amazing Spider-man was Marvel's largest property.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 08:05 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, Quesada's been pretty crazy about just throwing whatever the hell he can think of at the wall in hopes that it sticks. There have been a lot of weird little miniseries and hail-Mary ongoings out of his Marvel.

I was just reading Beyond! earlier today. A six-issue miniseries starring a bunch of villains and C-list Avengers, drawing on twenty-year-old continuity? Sure, green-light that. It'll sell like a paper bag full of used needles but we'll publish it!

[personal profile] arilou_skiff 2010-06-07 08:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Quesada also seems to genuinely want to diversify the Marvel cast a bit. I remember seeing an interview that said that what he was most proud of as EIC was introducing more hispanic characters to the MU.
proteus_lives: (Default)

[personal profile] proteus_lives 2010-06-07 08:37 pm (UTC)(link)
I thought Beyond! was delightful.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 08:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Don't get me wrong. It's not a bad story at all; McDuffie does good work. It's just an obviously strange pitch to make.

[personal profile] hyperactivator 2010-06-07 01:36 pm (UTC)(link)
But OMD isn't selling. Spider-Man sells the same amout of comics but to alot less people.
darkblade: (Default)

[personal profile] darkblade 2010-06-07 04:38 pm (UTC)(link)
"Joe Quesada strikes me as a guy who would sell ANYTHING: Tijuana Bibles, Classics Illustrated, Ikea Instruction Manuals if he thought they could crack 100,000+"

Unless it is a married Spider-Man.
big_daddy_d: (Default)

[personal profile] big_daddy_d 2010-06-07 11:24 pm (UTC)(link)
LMAO. Good one.
bluepard: Brainy writes Mary Sue fanfic. (Legion - So yay Hoyay)

[personal profile] bluepard 2010-06-07 06:44 am (UTC)(link)
It's not a good thing that there are more green and blue and orange people than minorities. That is the point. See icon for a relevant series.
bluepard: A creepy grinning woman from the student film "Smile" (Horror Grin)

[personal profile] bluepard 2010-06-07 06:48 am (UTC)(link)
Also, someone on that blog said "he’s just pointing out they don’t automatically make everyone white."

But if Brainy or whoever is turned human, they're always turned white. Even the greens and blues, etc, are white on the inside, I guess.
bluefall: Amanda Waller looking badass and displeased. (the Wall is not impressed.)

[personal profile] bluefall 2010-06-07 06:58 am (UTC)(link)
Rama was blue and Indian! It blew my mind. And Xavin is black in human form. Were any of the Majesdanes we met nonwhite?

And hey! Considering the fact that comic book sameface is so horrific and whitewashy that Mari Jiwe McCabe has Caucasian features 90% of the time, who knows? Korugarans could be pink-skinned Samoans instead of pink-skinned white folks and we'd never know the difference.

Well, I suppose we could tell by how many of them are still alive.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 07:11 am (UTC)(link)
Runaways is actually published by Marvel.
bluefall: A surprised-looking cat (puzzled Krosp)

[personal profile] bluefall 2010-06-07 07:19 am (UTC)(link)
... yes, and?
q99: (Default)

[personal profile] q99 2010-06-07 07:51 am (UTC)(link)
DC has the problem more than Marvel does.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 10:50 am (UTC)(link)
It seemed weird that you'd bring up Xavin at all in a discussion of DC aliens, although I could probably have phrased that reaction better.
bluefall: blue-tinted autumn leaves (Default)

[personal profile] bluefall 2010-06-07 06:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, Marvel has the same problem - Beast is white, Mystique is white, Jazinda is white, Karolina is white, every one of the green gamma folks are white, every Kree I can think of is white, blue Atlanteans are white... The most recent crop of mutants are a help, but Marvel is no less a contributor to the long tradition of "differently colored white people" than DC is, so it didn't really occur to me that we'd be restricting the conversation to just the DC half of the phenomenon.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 07:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Thinking about it, I wonder if it's not another facet of the problem with new characters in modern comics. Most of the major alien races in both universes were created in the sixties or seventies, IIRC, and none of the races created since then have really taken hold in the universe's space culture. The Kree are "Star Trek" blue people, the Skrulls are "Star Trek" forehead aliens, the Khunds are purple pro wrestlers, the Rannians and Thanagarians are basically human...

[personal profile] arilou_skiff 2010-06-07 08:13 pm (UTC)(link)
The kree actually used to be something of a segregation/apartheid analogy didn't they? What with the blue-skins oppressing the pink-skins.
thehood: (Default)

[personal profile] thehood 2010-06-09 06:52 am (UTC)(link)
Execept most of the ones you've mentioned were white before turning blue or such. Beast was white before turning Blue.

There were also a few atlanteans who are black.

Not that i disagree mind you.
ext_3522: (Default)

[identity profile] minervasolo.livejournal.com 2010-06-07 06:59 am (UTC)(link)
Drive-by icon love. The film seriously creeped my out!
auryn: Magik in her cell. (Default)

[personal profile] auryn 2010-06-07 10:18 am (UTC)(link)
Your icon wants to kill me.
bluepard: Kitty up, kitty down. (Kitty!!)

[personal profile] bluepard 2010-06-07 07:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Don't worry, she wants to kill everyone. =D
magnetic_regina: Lazin' in a flower (Default)

[personal profile] magnetic_regina 2010-06-07 06:58 am (UTC)(link)
Um... I'm just going to leave this here.
deleonjh: (Default)

[personal profile] deleonjh 2010-06-07 07:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks, I was trying to find that link.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 07:10 am (UTC)(link)
The dude at 4th letter is named David Brothers. David Brooks is a conservative pundit.

I get the feeling Ian Sattler was hired to deflect some ire from Didio, and for no other reason.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 07:12 am (UTC)(link)
Also, as a hopeless Marvel fanboy, watching DC dig themselves deeper like this gives me a big old unfortunate grin. It is terrible but I cannot help it.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 07:52 am (UTC)(link)
Dig deeper? Blackest Night is making them beat Marvel.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 08:10 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, sure, the sales are what they are. I didn't know Blackest Night was quite that popular, but I suppose it shouldn't surprise me.

That said, they've been pissing more vocal comic book fans off every week for the last month or longer, and they just keep doing it. It's entertaining to me, because I have no emotional investment in the quality of DC's output.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 08:16 am (UTC)(link)
And Marvel's not guilty of doing that?
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 08:21 am (UTC)(link)
Quesada has a very different, arguably stupid idea of what Spider-Man should be (although OMD has produced some truly fine comics, particularly recently), and Bendis's loose grasp on continuity has aggrieved many nerds.

Marvel in general doesn't do two important things that DC is fucking up right now, though. One is that the characters, while predominantly white, aren't becoming more so as time goes on; the other is that they aren't giving the Silver Age a big sloppy blow job at the expense of everything else.

Marvel has a entire basket full of issues, but DC just seems so utterly clueless right now that it's hilarious. "Let's put out a five-issue miniseries where Roy Harper beats junkies to death with a dead cat! That's awesome!"

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 08:31 am (UTC)(link)
Utterly clueless? I think their sales seem to indicate otherwise.

The Internet's outcry doesn't always match the consensus amongst fans. Sales often contradict what you read on the Internet.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 08:47 am (UTC)(link)
Their sales are completely independent of the discussion at hand. Having more fanboy dollars in hand does not mean they are abruptly, retroactively not killing off or marginalizing all their minority/legacy characters, publishing Rise of Arsenal, fucking up the Titans franchise, and letting Ian Sattler represent them in public. It just means they're moving more comics, at least for the time being, and doesn't make what they're doing in any way less hilarious.

It does say something about the disconnect between comics fans and comics fandom, though. I wouldn't have guessed there were that many Hal Jordan fans left on the planet.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 08:52 am (UTC)(link)
Nobody denied they weren't doing that. What I said was the outcry does not correspond with the sales, which would tell DC that the angry fans are in the minority and are simply just louder than the others.

They're a business and moving comics is their goal. If that's happening then naturally they're going to assume the direction the stories are in is a good one.

ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 09:06 am (UTC)(link)
What I'd be interested in seeing, then, is how the sales figures start to shake down after another couple of months of this foolishness. Blackest Night sold like hotcakes in April, but the plastic rings they were giving away with it did tend to play a significant role.

I'm not quite sure why you feel the need to cite the sales figures at all, though. Blackest Night could outsell the Bible and it wouldn't make Sattler's comments any less stupid.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 09:12 am (UTC)(link)
Because the best way to tell a business that you disapprove of their product is with sales figures. That's the only way your voice is going to be heard.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 09:15 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, we're still having two different conversations here.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 09:18 am (UTC)(link)
No, we're not.

The fan community on the Internet has a loud voice and their disapproval is hard to ignore, but if a DC exec. sees sales that have put them over their competitor for the first time in a long time then the obvious conclusion is that community is the minority and the direction the stories are in is a good one.

This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 10:06 am (UTC)(link)
No, it's not a difficult concept to grasp. It's also completely irrelevant to what I'm saying.

One more time: the stupid things they are saying and doing in and out of their comic books are amusing to me. The fact that they are currently #1 on the sales charts may be rewarding that behavior, and the near-unanimous annoyance of the fan community may not be translating directly to DC taking a sales hit, but that has precisely zero effect on my being entertained by their ineptitude. They may be good at selling comics, but they're straight fucking terrible at hiring people to speak on their behalf at comics conventions.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 08:32 am (UTC)(link)
Also, you're delusional if you think Marvel isn't guilty of poorly representing a people. They pretty much suck when it comes to writing women most of the time.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 08:51 am (UTC)(link)
I never said that, nor should you take my glee at DC's bungling as some kind of personal slight against you as a fan of DC. They don't need you to defend them, nor do they deserve defense on this particular topic.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 08:54 am (UTC)(link)
No, you're just using your admitted bias to downplay any similar gaffes on Marvel's part.

And nobody is condoning their methods, I was explaining why it is happening why it may continue.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 09:02 am (UTC)(link)
If you could name the gaffes in question, I'd love to hear it. In order for the gaffes to qualify for comparison, please keep in mind that they would have to occasion angry commentary by all available critics. I have already pointed out One More Day as a similar gaffe.

Further, of course I'm biased; I entered this conversation saying that, while I recognize it is silly, I am enjoying this the same way I would enjoy it if my favored sports team's hated rival showed up for a series game visibly drunk and not wearing pants.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 09:11 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, I know hence "admitted bias."

And I already pointed out the way they treat women. Then there is Ultimate Comics, Marvel's hiring of Loeb, the subsequent Red Hulk story, World War Hulk, Civil War, Secret Invasion, Steve Rogers being killed, Speedball/Penance, New Warriors, Clor, House of M, mishandling of Runaways and Young Avengers, etc.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 09:26 am (UTC)(link)
Would you like to cite specific instances of the way they treat women?

Further, precisely what does that list represent? I was asking for gaffes, which in context means either work that was considered racially or sexually troublesome, or high-ranking employees of the company saying things about the work that reflect racially or sexually questionable attitudes or opinions. You seem to have given me a list of books and stories that you don't happen to like.

I'd also point out a few things here: they hire Loeb because his books tend to sell very well, including Red Hulk, and they've carefully put him in corners of the universe where he can't do too much lasting damage. World War Hulk was a fun summer event book; I rather liked it. Ultimate Spider-Man is awesome. Steve Rogers being killed was the beginning of one of the best runs of comics of the decade, with Brubaker turning in A-plus work every issue for a few years. Speedball/Penance started as a really bad idea, but the character's been slowly getting better in Initiative, thanks to therapy, and is just about back to interesting again.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 09:33 am (UTC)(link)
I am not simply pointing out stories I dislike, these are all gaffes that have resulted in similar fan outcry.

If you need examples of how they treat women then there is the Mary Jane Watson statue controversy, Black Cat's retconed rape origin, Moonstone becoming a slut in Thunderbolts for no discernible reason, Marvel Divas, Scarlet Witch's breakdown, Gwen Stacy's retconed infidelity, any woman Loeb has touched.

Not a female gaffe, but I forgot to include Freedom Ring and Marvel's mishandling of gay characters.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 09:57 am (UTC)(link)
The entirety of Secret Invasion is a "gaffe"?

Marvel Divas was a lightweight little book with a stupid title that turned out okay in the end; if you ignore the title, it's actually not bad, and comes off as more of a way of keeping Monica Rambeau in circulation than anything else. Black Cat having rape in her origin is a groaner of a story that hasn't come up again. Gwen Stacy wasn't "unfaithful"; she simply made an unwise sexual decision while single, as part of a regrettable story. So far, Loeb has not done permanent damage to any female character in 616 with the possible but unlikely exception of Betty Ross. Moonstone's sexual manipulation in Thunderbolts goes straight back to how she acted in Busiek's run on the book, attempting to seduce Hawkeye, so that comes out of ten-year-old continuity. The Mary Jane statue was a couple of eye-rolling blog posts a few years ago and hasn't been brought up since.

I'll give you Scarlet Witch, although the butcher's bill for that clusterfuck goes back twenty years or more. Hell, I'll give you the various issues that have been raised with Jean Grey, and with Hank's relationship with Jocasta in Mighty Avengers. I'm not seeing how this qualifies as "the way they write women," though; for every example you're bringing up, and you're serving some mighty thin soup here, there's a story with Sue or Storm or She-Hulk or Ms. Marvel or Kitty or Rogue or Black Widow or Athena or Namora or Venus or whoever being awesome.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 10:02 am (UTC)(link)
Your personal opinions do not really matter here. These resulted outcry.

Secret Invasion was a gaffe, yes. The mishandling of the Wasp's character ended with her death, most people seemed displeased with the ending, and as a whole it was considered an extension of the mistakes in Civil War.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 10:18 am (UTC)(link)
That resulted in snarky blog posts and a couple of critics having mean things to say. By that standard, fucking everything that either major company has put out in the last couple of years has been a "gaffe," up to and including the stuff that's good. After all, you just qualified the critically-successful, financially-rewarding, Eisner-winning (Best Writer, 2007, 2008, nominated in 2010) Brubaker run on Captain America as a "gaffe."

There's a difference between an organized consensus of people wondering aloud what the fuck is wrong with you and a bunch of people using you as that day's grist for the blog mill. DC's current "whitewashing" controversy is decidedly the former, and Marvel hasn't fucked up that badly since Quesada shot his mouth off about One More Day. (Everyone pretty much agreeing that Siege's ending was crap is not the same thing.) If your primary exposure to comics fandom online is Scans Daily, though, you may think otherwise; this community has different demographics, and often reacts very differently.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 10:22 am (UTC)(link)
You're letting your personal bias cloud the matter again. I qualified Captain America's death as a gaffe, not the whole of Brubaker's Captain America run, and at the time the consensus was overwhelmingly negative.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 10:33 am (UTC)(link)
Was it? From what I recall, it wasn't negative so much as it was a cynical disbelief that the death would stick. The issue sold a little under three hundred thousand copies and made national news; if any of those national news articles were predominantly negative, I'm not finding them now.

By any measure, though, it is not a gaffe on the level of the current DC backwards thinking, particularly in retrospect, now that it's led to such a successful comic.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 10:35 am (UTC)(link)
You're proving my point about these gaffes though. The reaction on the Internet does not translate into sales.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 10:49 am (UTC)(link)
You're really determined to shoehorn that point in anywhere you can, aren't you? That point's just as irrelevant in this discussion as it was in the other one, because this obnoxiously long, I'm-only-still-here-because-the-energy-drinks-have-yet-to-wear-off thread is about gaffe comparison and has nothing to do with sales.

I brought up the sales on the floppy of The Death of Captain America as part of pointing out that it isn't a controversy rooted in failure; it was a deliberately manufactured media event, and it paid off big for Marvel. Again, the only thing Marvel has done in recent years that even approaches the DC whitewash controversy is OMD exploding people's heads with its stupidity, and even that just made Quesada look like he took a fictional character too goddamn seriously.
(deleted comment)
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 11:00 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, regardless of whatever I was saying at the time. I figured it'd be your answer if I suggested we should go get pizza.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 11:04 am (UTC)(link)
Yes it does have to do with sales. This entire discussion is about the relevance of fan anger and how the companies measure it. YOU CANNOT HAVE THIS DISCUSSION WITHOUT BRINGING UP SALES. Sales is the scale they use to determine what we do and do not like.

And the second part of your post again is proving the point that may seem to be the consensus isn't always the case and doesn't translate into sales, which is again the scale with which they use to determine what we dislike. While the reaction to Steve Rogers death may have been overwhelmingly negative, what Marvel saw in sales said that this opinion was in minority.

And your opinion on DC's whitewashing may not translate into their sales. If it doesn't then that anger isn't getting across to them.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 11:13 am (UTC)(link)
Dude, I never even brought up the relevance of fan anger. I don't give a fuck. That's all you. The closest I came was saying that Marvel hasn't done anything this bad in a while.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 11:14 am (UTC)(link)
And they have, they've been doing that for years. It's Quesada's favorite hobby, and I've pointed out several examples.

And your entire discussion has been about fan anger.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 11:21 am (UTC)(link)
Quesada likes riling up the fan base over Speedball and saying stupid shit about Spider-Man and marriage. He's not committing well-known logical fallacies in an attempt to combat open accusations of racism.

One's silly shit about fictional dudes. One's cramming your foot down your neck 'til a shoe pops out your groin. There is a difference.

My entire part in this conversation's been about me being entertained that DC can't stop fucking up. I'm not angry; I'm amused, now more than ever.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 11:24 am (UTC)(link)
And I countered your argument with the sales point because if Brightest Day sells as well as Blackest Night then they are not fucking up, as far as they are concerned.

And again, your personal bias is showing. Women and gays are well known victims of Marvel policies.

Quesada championed Freedom Ring as Marvel's spotlight gay superhero. He was later killed shortly after in his own series in a very questionable and offensive manner.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 11:32 am (UTC)(link)
What they think is irrelevant. They're still fucking up.

I'm really not seeing how "Marvel policies" victimize women or gays, particularly in the last couple of years. They've certainly told some regrettable stories that featured both women and gays, like that time they killed off Northstar three times in one month, but "well known victims"? What crap is this, now?

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 11:34 am (UTC)(link)
Again, if it sells well they are not going to think they're fucking up. Marvel would feel the same way.

Do you realize you just denied and acknowledged my point as false and fact at the same time?
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 11:40 am (UTC)(link)
And again: I do not care what they think.

You're making it sound like it's a matter of Marvel editorial policy to write stories where women and gay people wind up as victims. Yeah, bad things have happened to both female and gay characters at Marvel (and at any other company), but not as part of Marvel's Heteronormativity is Awesome story initiative. Your point is poorly phrased at best, particularly now, when Marvel is deliberately trying to do more with its female characters.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 11:49 am (UTC)(link)
Doesn't matter if you care or not, it's still fact. And you seemed to care up until the point where you were proven wrong.

Marvel is only just now starting to do more with their female characters AFTER the backlash they received for a long period misogyny. They're still not doing the same thing for their gay characters.

And there was in fact editorial policies that hindered the development of those gay characters. For a while any title with a gay character was instantly deemed mature.

On the subject of Freedom Ring, the treatment of which Marvel received considerable backlash. Here's two quotes on Robert Kirkman concerning FR and gay characters in Marvel.

"Freedom Ring was always planned as an inexperienced hero who would get beaten up constantly and probably die. I wanted to comment on the fact that most superheroes get their powers and are okay at it... and that's not how life works. During working on the book, I was also noticing that most gay characters... are all about being gay. Straight characters are well-rounded characters who like chicks. So I wanted to do a well-rounded character who just happened to like dudes. Then I decided to combine the two ideas. In hindsight, yeah, killing a gay character is no good when there are so few of them... but I really had only the best of intentions in mind."

A very similar situation to DC's statement here. It was their intention, but it happened anyway.

"Frankly, with the SMALL amount of gay characters in comics in general, and how unfortunate the portrayals have been thus far, whether intentional or not—I completely understand the backlash on the death of Freedom Ring, regardless of my intentions. If I had it to do all over again... I wouldn't kill him. I regret it more and more as time goes on. I got rid of what? 20% of the gay characters at Marvel by killing off this ONE character. I just never took that stuff into consideration while I was writing."
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 07:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I was never proven wrong, because you're not making a coherent enough argument to prove much of anything. As a general rule, for a debate to be useful, both sides should probably be fairly clear what they're discussing, and you keep flying off into questionable assertions and irrelevant proclamations.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 07:05 pm (UTC)(link)
I see my mistake was engaging in a discussion with someone who cannot acknowledge a fact if it means they're wrong.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 07:11 pm (UTC)(link)
No, that implies you made just one mistake. Mine was perpetuating this discussion in an attempt to figure out what the hell you were talking about.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 07:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Well if you have trouble understanding obvious facts and realities then it's no wonder.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 07:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Look, let's just both drop it and walk away. Neither of us seem to have a handle on what the other is trying to say, so any further discussion is truly pointless.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 07:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Well no, I have firm handle on what you were saying. You were just wrong and I pointed that out and proved it.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 07:38 pm (UTC)(link)
You didn't prove I was wrong the first time, because me saying I'm entertained by DC fucking up is not an argument.

You didn't prove I was wrong, because none of the "gaffes" at Marvel that you mentioned have been a systematic, near-unanimous accusation of racism, myopia, and toxic nostalgia.

You haven't proved anything, except maybe that we both have too much free time.
divi_d: Very old drawing of my old feline OC Rashida.  (Still my avatar of choice, though :-p.) (Default)

[personal profile] divi_d 2010-06-07 08:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Uh, guys? Not to be a butinsky, but I really don't see where this argument is going at this point.

Yes, theanswer, we already know you think you proved his point wrong (and, by extension, that would also mean we already know you think you know what he's talking about). Stating it again doesn't really provide anything new, other than maybe to turn your argument into an ad-nauseum tactic (SP). (For the record, BTW, it does kinda look to me more like you actually did miss the original point rather than actually prove anything wrong, but this argument has gotten so damn long that I admit I may just have lost track of what's what.)

Yes, Stolisomancer, we know you don't feel this way. Havn't you actually tried to withdraw from this conversation twice now (I don't mean this in a patrinising way, mind you. I think I've been down this ally many a time myself, actually XD)?

Yeah, I know, it's really none of my bussiness, but it is kinda getting ridiculous, and while I'm hardly going to pretend I have the right to demand you guys stop arguing, I am kinda getting genuinely curious what, if anything, either of you think you can possibly accomplish at this point...
Edited 2010-06-07 20:15 (UTC)
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 08:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I should've stopped talking a long time ago, but last night I couldn't sleep and this morning I'm trying to avoid a boring project.
divi_d: Very old drawing of my old feline OC Rashida.  (Still my avatar of choice, though :-p.) (Default)

[personal profile] divi_d 2010-06-07 08:53 pm (UTC)(link)
autolychus2: (Default)

[personal profile] autolychus2 2010-06-08 12:36 am (UTC)(link)
No, you didn't. Stolis is right.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-08 12:39 am (UTC)(link)
No, he is not.
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)

[personal profile] fifthie 2010-06-08 05:24 pm (UTC)(link)
The entirety of your argument seems to be "none of those examples don't count, because I say they don't count".
q99: (Default)

[personal profile] q99 2010-06-07 08:31 am (UTC)(link)
I like DC's world more. I like DC's characters more.

I buy more Marvel because I like their books more.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 08:59 am (UTC)(link)
There was a period of time, around when Morrison was writing JLA, when I genuinely did like the DC universe more. The fact that most of their A-list heroes were legacy guys, and that the ones who weren't had clear successors lined up, was interesting to me, and gave the universe a sense of forward momentum that late-nineties Marvel just couldn't match. They've been systematically dismantling that ever since.

I don't actually think people who prefer DC are wrong. I just have a weird image of DC and Marvel as bitter sports rivals or something, and I'm a Marvel guy. When DC screws up well beyond the bounds of reason or sense, I get a little touch of schadenfreude.
q99: (Default)

[personal profile] q99 2010-06-07 09:13 am (UTC)(link)
I'm purely in the "more good books, the better" camp because I need reading material. Right now, neither's doing enough for my appetite.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 09:15 am (UTC)(link)
Well, it's not like there will ever be enough good books.
q99: (Default)

[personal profile] q99 2010-06-07 10:12 am (UTC)(link)
Yea, but past a certain point it's "which of these good books should I follow?" rather than "is it worth going to the comic store this week at all?"

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 09:40 am (UTC)(link)
You realize now they have more legacy characters they know what to do with... surely.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 09:43 am (UTC)(link)
Connor's an amnesiac, Kyle's irrelevant, Wally got his book taken away, and Ollie, Hal, and Barry all came back to life. The forward momentum I was interested in was abruptly halted and reversed.

I should clarify: it wasn't the existence of legacy characters itself that interested me. It was those specific legacy characters and their impact on the universe.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 09:53 am (UTC)(link)
Conner is no longer an amnesiac.

Kyle is practically the star of Green Lantern Corps now.

Wally got his book taken away because it wasn't selling.

And Green Arrow family's momentum was ended because they had so many archers and nothing remarkable being done with them.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 10:00 am (UTC)(link)
When did Connor get his memories back? The last time I'd heard anything, they'd basically written him out of the Green Arrow franchise permanently.

Further, I don't care about the rationale behind it. I'm not looking for someone to explain this to me. It's a sidelong comment that the status quo at DC that I liked was that of the Morrison-era JLA, which no longer exists. I liked Kyle in New York dating Jen and trying to live up to the Lantern name, particularly right after Winick took over the book.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 10:04 am (UTC)(link)
Conner got his memories back during the Blackest Night.

[personal profile] jlbarnett 2010-06-07 01:11 pm (UTC)(link)
it's worth noting that they really don't mean anything to him anymore though.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 01:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Well they do, it's just provided with the gradual recollection he's gained new insight into his relationship with his father.

[personal profile] jlbarnett 2010-06-07 01:18 pm (UTC)(link)
the way I read it it seemed to be saying "My entire life up to this point has been stupid" so it seemed like he'd rather not have them to me.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 01:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Seemed more like he was blaming everything that's happened to him on his father because of Ollie's self-centeredness.

[personal profile] jlbarnett 2010-06-07 01:37 pm (UTC)(link)
rather ridiculous thing to say, but okay.
lea_hazel: I am surrounded by tiny red hearts (Feel: Love)

[personal profile] lea_hazel 2010-06-07 07:33 am (UTC)(link)
Wouldn't it be hilarious if pundits started opining on comics?
suzene: (*sigh*)

[personal profile] suzene 2010-06-07 07:42 am (UTC)(link)
Oh please, no. Steve "I Hate Diversity" Blair has already given me my quota for "Do you not think before you open your mouth?!" for the year.
skalja: Ultimate Spider-Woman posing like a BAMF (Default)

[personal profile] skalja 2010-06-07 01:20 pm (UTC)(link)
At least the backlash against him has gotten huge -- the rest of the local government is repudiating him as well, last I heard.
suzene: (Default)

[personal profile] suzene 2010-06-07 05:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I appreciate that he's getting a spanking, but the circumstances and the original targets -- the mural and the kids working on it -- combined with all of the other race and gay-rights fail we've had the last few years down here kind of has me in a "Nuke us from orbit...please!" state of mind.
skalja: Ultimate Spider-Woman posing like a BAMF (temeraire: book cover)

[personal profile] skalja 2010-06-07 05:18 pm (UTC)(link)
That's completely fair and totally understandable.
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 08:02 am (UTC)(link)
I've actually been expecting somebody at Fox to blow a gasket over something or another in a mainstream comic book - Billy and Teddy's relationship, Ares's gory dismembering in Siege, Batwoman's ongoing, etc. - for quite some time now. The teabagger rally in Captain America came close, but didn't quite go over the edge.
lea_hazel: The Little Mermaid (Default)

[personal profile] lea_hazel 2010-06-07 04:55 pm (UTC)(link)
I was expecting it to be something in Civil War. I mean. WWII vet Captain America as an outlaw?
ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 07:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Steve's always been pretty liberal, though. He dated a Jewish girl, hangs out with black people, beats up racists, tends to wind up fighting the government during Republican administrations, and refuses to carry a gun. They also made sure that immediately after 9/11, Steve spent a few months explicitly going after terrorists.
neuhallidae: (Default)

[personal profile] neuhallidae 2010-06-08 04:56 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, did you see where Yahoo news was whining that movie!Cap wasn't a true American because a movie based in the European Theater is being ::gasp:: filmed in Europe, taking away precious economic boosts to LA? I was hoping that would puff up into something, just because it was so hilariously absurd.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 07:30 am (UTC)(link)
You not seeing it that way is the problem.
lea_hazel: The outlook is somewhat dismal (Feel: Crash and Burn)

[personal profile] lea_hazel 2010-06-07 07:32 am (UTC)(link)
I don't suppose it ever occurred to Mr. Sattler that if he gets the same complaints over and over again, there might be something to them?
suzene: (isnark)

[personal profile] suzene 2010-06-07 07:48 am (UTC)(link)
But if the fans are complaining, that means they did a good job of getting us emotionally invested! Whee!

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 07:53 am (UTC)(link)
I think part of the problem is that the outcry doesn't correspond with sales.
shadeedge: (Default)

[personal profile] shadeedge 2010-06-07 02:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Actually, i'm not so sure that's certain. It's not enough to show that comics included in the outcry don't fail, but rather, that they don't succeed to the amount they might, which admittedly is a lot harder.

If 75% of the internet sphere complain about something, but they only make up 10% of total sales, then it's quite possible for a book to be a considerable success even without internet-using fans. But that doesn't mean that those sales couldn't be higher. It's not a case of being able to annoy one faction if another likes you, even if that second group is much larger. Ideally, you want to make both groups happy.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 02:25 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm thinking more along the lines of determining quality. Imagine if you were a DC executive and hear all of this outrage on the Internet concerning your most popular title. From that point of view I can understand how they may not see a correlation if the title is so successful.
shadeedge: (Default)

[personal profile] shadeedge 2010-06-07 08:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I can see how it would be easy to think that. I mean, we don't get to see how successful (or otherwise) a comic is if it were different, because it's not. We don't have sales stats for these comics with those objectionable points removed - we can look to see how they affect the comics afterwards, but even then, we can't know how successful it might have been.

Put another way. If i'm a DC executive, aware of the furor, and I then see the sales figures and see that Superman (or whatever) is selling pretty averagely, I might well conclude that the furor had no effect. But it's quite possible that other factors have come into play which effectively hide a drop rate. If i'm selling 100 Supermans, I don't know that I might well have actually sold 120 Supermans; or that the furor has cost me 20 purchases but other points have gained me 20.

I'd also be fired the next day for my low sales, but hey. ;)

[personal profile] jlbarnett 2010-06-07 08:19 pm (UTC)(link)
which is a problem. Otherwise TVtropes wouldn't have fan tropes like RUINED FOREVER or They Changed It, Now It Sucks.
zemo: (Default)

[personal profile] zemo 2010-06-07 10:06 am (UTC)(link)
Well, imagine being Sattler for a moment. You may always get the same complaints, BUT, they always come from the same people or the same group of people. What's easier, thinking they have a point, or that they are just the group of never-happy super-nerds that are a part of the comic industry?

Theanswer actually has a point: DC sells more comics by replacing the legacy characters with their white predecessors, why should THEY think they're doing something wrong?
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)

[personal profile] wizardru 2010-06-07 12:15 pm (UTC)(link)
That's a valid point....BUT it's not a fair comparison.

Quick, of the following three characters who have ethnically-diverse legacy characters, which ones have had actual ongoing titles?

The Atom
Green Lantern

Now of those characters, which has been replaced and in favor of a new ongoing with better or equal sales? Arguably the only one that might have a case is Green Lantern...but since he has multiple titles and the legacy character is featured in one of them fairly actively, I don't see it as counting.

Ray Palmer's Atom had one regular series...and it only managed 18 issues. Ryan Choi's Atom managed 25 (although really, I only count the first 20...Remender's run was just AWFUL). The Jason Rusch Firestorm did only last 35 issues...far less than the previous Firestorm's SECOND outing....but he hasn't been subsequently replaced with a Ronnie Raymond ongoing to show that he sells better.

To put it another way: there isn't a lot of evidence yet that the legacy characters sold any better or worse than the originals. Firestorm only appears in big crossover titles, team books or other characters stories...he isn't competing with someone else. The Atom so far has yet to exceed his legacy character's sales numbers...he merely has the benefit of being around longer.

Jamie Reyes' series ran for 12 issues longer than Ted Kord's...though again, Ted spent much more time in JLI than he ever did solo. Jamie is arguably MORE popular, since he's featured in TV's Batman: Brave and the Bold series. He's also in other team books, like the Teen Titans.

So right now, there's very little evidence that these legacy characters somehow are much better sellers. In fact, the general evidence seems to show the opposite to be true. I'm open to the idea that I may be missing something, but at the moment I'm not seeing it.
zemo: (Default)

[personal profile] zemo 2010-06-07 01:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, I was more referring to earlier comments that stated that the legacy characters sell better. That may well not be the case.

I actually think it would be a good idea to do some research in that regard to have some hard facts. Too sad neither DC nor Marvel will allow anybody to know their exact sales numbers. :/

[personal profile] jlbarnett 2010-06-07 01:19 pm (UTC)(link)
however if you have fan demand for a character like Firestorm or Atom and you just had a book with the legacy character fail do you want to jump back in with that character again? Or do you create another new character when you barely had time to examine the most recent? Or do you take a step backwards?

intertobamf: (Default)

[personal profile] intertobamf 2010-06-07 08:24 pm (UTC)(link)
I hope by "Green Lantern", you don't mean Kyle Rayner.

Because one throwaway retcon does not make him "ethnically diverse". He was created as white and is still written as such, and attempts at lumping him into DC's attitude towards minorities only makes people take the entire thing less seriously.
jjgalahad: (Default)

I will let Worf speak for me on this matter

[personal profile] jjgalahad 2010-06-07 08:44 am (UTC)(link)
Disgusted Worf is Disgusted

Re: I will let Worf speak for me on this matter

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 08:59 am (UTC)(link)
Image and video hosting by TinyPic
jjgalahad: (Default)

Re: I will let Worf speak for me on this matter

[personal profile] jjgalahad 2010-06-07 09:44 am (UTC)(link)

Oh, come the fuck on!

Re: I will let Worf speak for me on this matter

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 09:56 am (UTC)(link)
Image and video hosting by TinyPic
seriousfic: (Default)

[personal profile] seriousfic 2010-06-07 09:03 am (UTC)(link)
You know, before you go into a discussion on race, DC people, perhaps it would be a good idea to look up the idea of "coded white"? It is just a teeny bit important. While you're at it, look up the concept of diversity. Believe it or not, there are not many pink people who are very pleased at having a pink-skinned hero to look up to.
seriousfic: (Default)

[personal profile] seriousfic 2010-06-07 09:03 am (UTC)(link)
But other than that, you have completely successfully defused the current racial tension. Cash that paycheck with pride!
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2010-06-07 09:17 am (UTC)(link)
Believe it or not, there are not many pink people who are very pleased at having a pink-skinned hero to look up to.

Is there a typo in that sentence? It doesn't make much sense to this pink guy who is perfectly happy to have pink-skinned heroes to look up to though I have no problem with looking up to heroes of a variety of humanities shades either.
seriousfic: (Default)

[personal profile] seriousfic 2010-06-07 09:24 am (UTC)(link)
I meant that since there are no pink-skinned people in real life, they can't be represented by a pink-skinned character in the comics.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2010-06-07 10:27 am (UTC)(link)
I'd say that's rather confusing, since Caucasian skintone is closer to pink than it is to white.
benicio127: (Terry Frank Miller)

[personal profile] benicio127 2010-06-07 12:28 pm (UTC)(link)
No, it's not that confusing. Superheroes are also supposed to be role models. There are no blue, green or pink people in reality. However, there are black people and not being able to see people of their own colour in role model roles is what's troublesome.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2010-06-07 01:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I think you might have missed the point of my post, I'm not arguing that there is enough diversity in the comics, I'm saying that there ARE pink people, because Causcasian skintone IS closer to pink than it is to white, that's all.
divi_d: Very old drawing of my old feline OC Rashida.  (Still my avatar of choice, though :-p.) (Default)

[personal profile] divi_d 2010-06-07 06:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Except that there ARE pink people in reality. They're called "white," but surprisingly, relatively few of them actually are white colored. [It actually kind of bugs me when people mistakenly assume the "white"/"black" labels actually correspond to skin color. "White" people are pink. "Black" people are brown. It can actually pose several significant problems to forget this (least of all being that actually depicting an African American as having black skin is considered a form of racist symbolism :-p).]

For that matter, I also need to point out that there are also blue and green skinned people in real life. They're the result of skin conditions (I know green skin involves an excess of copper, I don't entirely recall what causes blue skin).

That said, it's certainly true that I very much doubt these are the kinds of green/blue/pink people being talked about in the reply quoted. In fact, I don't think the skin conditions responsible for said green/blue skin even have ANY representation in DC comics, do they?
benicio127: (Gah!)

[personal profile] benicio127 2010-06-08 10:07 am (UTC)(link)
Honestly, this comment is completely missing the point.

First of all, whether or not white people are pink-hued is completely irrelevant. Secondly, for those people who do suffer from some rare form of disease/infliction/condition, etc. that has turned their skin colour a different colour, they aren't really being represented either because their condition is what's not being represented. Thirdly, those skin conditions are incredibly rare and to even think that they are being represented before groups of marginalized and prejudiced against people in society is just absurd.

However, there are millions of black and Asian people who are underrepresented in all kinds of media. I want to see THEM represented., not the lone person who has one of the rarest skin conditions in the world, thank you very much.
divi_d: Very old drawing of my old feline OC Rashida.  (Still my avatar of choice, though :-p.) (Default)

[personal profile] divi_d 2010-06-08 05:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Actually, if you read my entire post, you'll notice I acknowledged (and agreed with) that point just fine.

My problem here is with wording said point in a way that completely ignores a group of people because they happen to be a smaller minority (or implying that those people don't get prejudiced against O_o), or that creates a whole separate set of problems (the latter being exactly what you did when you deliberately ignored icon_uk's point, re-read my post if you're confused by that one. And before you comment, yes, I know that's not how you meant it, but the potential to take away the message "black=black skin tone" is still there).

So, again, no, I didn't miss your point. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to correct you if you state it in a problematic manner.
Edited 2010-06-08 17:19 (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)

[personal profile] fifthie 2010-06-08 05:52 pm (UTC)(link)
White" people are pink. "Black" people are brown.

"Split" hairs are hairs that have been cut in half lengthwise.
divi_d: Very old drawing of my old feline OC Rashida.  (Still my avatar of choice, though :-p.) (Default)

[personal profile] divi_d 2010-06-08 10:13 pm (UTC)(link)
You know, I initially had a post here about how I felt it didn't exactly qualify as splitting hairs to point out that "white people aren't actually physically white and black people aren't actually physically black" due to old racist depictions, but as someone who is himself "white," it might be inappropriate for me to be taking such extreme levels of exception when I have no evidence any actual black people are interpreting said posts the same way.

I will keep my clarification that my objection didn't kick in until people started correcting Icon_Uk's post that he considered himself "pink" with "there are no pink people" (or words to that rough effect) rather than simply, "I don't think that's the kind of pink being talked about here" (if for no other reason than to make sure it's clear I'm not objecting to the idiomatic use of the term "black" to describe those of African descent, only people inadvertently implying that terms like that should be taken literally), but other than that... until somebody a bit more directly affected here comments sharing my feelings, I'm just gonna shut up so as to avoid adding another layer of irony to this whole thing (and risking a derailment in the process).
Edited 2010-06-08 22:51 (UTC)
zemo: (Default)

[personal profile] zemo 2010-06-07 01:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Weeellll...if you use that logic, there are no black people either. Just multitudes of shades of brown.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2010-06-07 01:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Actually yes, I'd agree with that. White and Black (usually capitalised) are, IMHO, catchall terms covering a wide range of shades.
auggie18: (Default)

[personal profile] auggie18 2010-06-07 03:15 pm (UTC)(link)
I worked at a daycare where we did a project about skin color. I got a booklet of swatches from the paint store and we all found out what colors we were.

Black and white are fairly inaccurate terms.

[personal profile] theanswer 2010-06-07 09:24 am (UTC)(link)
They meant pink as in Crayola Crayon bright pink, not pink as in what we would usually consider white.
seriousfic: (Default)

[personal profile] seriousfic 2010-06-07 09:27 am (UTC)(link)
*slaps forehead* Oh, and not Caucasian skin tone, but aliens who are literally pink.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2010-06-07 10:28 am (UTC)(link)
Ah, right, that I sort of follow then; Sinestro pink.
demonprawn: (Default)

[personal profile] demonprawn 2010-06-08 01:33 am (UTC)(link)
And lets face it Sinestro's not a great role model.
punishermax: (Default)

[personal profile] punishermax 2010-06-07 12:34 pm (UTC)(link)
The Great Ten isn't really a good way to deflect charges of racism. I haven't read the series, but after looking over what I learned in 52 and from character descriptions the female member seems pretty messed up.

A Chinese super heroine whose super power is that she pops out kids? What?
zemo: (Default)

[personal profile] zemo 2010-06-07 01:22 pm (UTC)(link)
That left aside, I find some the names incredibly stupid, and honestly said, kind of insulting. I mean, "August General in Iron"? Someone has seen Madame Butterfly once too often >_>
khamelea: (Default)

[personal profile] khamelea 2010-06-07 05:16 pm (UTC)(link)

I guess it might be creating an effect similar to the one that's created by, for example, Russian characters that still speak with a very heavy russian accent even though they're supposed to be speaking in their native language, the english dialogue just being a convenience for the audience. In those situations I always wonder if we're really supposed to be getting the impression that they're incapable of fluent speech in any language, like it's an innate character flaw brought from them being silly, backwards foreigners or something.

My understanding is that they did literal translations of names that were conceived in the Chinese language, so technically it's justified, and I like the way the codenames sound personally, but it's true that it doesn't negate the ackwardness and that it might be (and might have been meant as to some degree) belittling, in the same sense as the Russians slurred speech in translated russian.

[identity profile] minyandu.livejournal.com 2010-06-07 01:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Only read preview pages of Great Ten. Well, I mostly had a "Huh?O_o" face when reading. The only pages that really interested me is the one said Thundermind is a primary school teacher. Maybe if I read the whole story I would find it more interesting, but at least it's not interesting enough for me now. And I don't feel like want to read it.
....Actually, DC's Chinese stuff got me facepalm a lot of the time. BoP was great enough to make all the Cantonese in precise pronounciation, but none of the Chinese on those background signboards made sense. And there's Engchinese in Outsider--they got Chinese dialogue but the grammar got me all into a grammar nazi mode......
And I hope them stop drawing every Asian looks the same. Even the Chinese Army has some handsome male, and also beautiful female pilots.......just check Google...=_=
cloud_wolf: rearshot of robin!damian, batgirl!steph and red robin!tim (batgirl and spoiler)

[personal profile] cloud_wolf 2010-06-07 02:04 pm (UTC)(link)
And I hope them stop drawing every Asian looks the same. Even the Chinese Army has some handsome male, and also beautiful female pilots.......just check Google...=_=

Heh, I remember the huge ass parade China did to celebrate the fact that the Chinese republic was founded 60 years ago. That parade was crazy awesome, with a whole squadron of super tall and handsome marines (exactly the same height) and a whole freaking squadron of beautiful female soldiers (again, exactly the same height) wearing pink uniforms and white boots. Dude, when China goes out, they go all the way. See here and here.

[identity profile] minyandu.livejournal.com 2010-06-07 02:19 pm (UTC)(link)
I just wished the cameramen aimed more on the squadron instead of the politicians back then. Even I respect them enough they are still not handsome.
bluefall: an ape in the Thinker pose (ponder-y ape)

[personal profile] bluefall 2010-06-07 06:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Morrison's work was totally bankrupt, but I've found the series itself to be pretty reasonable; Bedard plays pretty damn fast and loose with the religions he's working with, but it doesn't strike me as any worse than Zauriel & Spectre or Thor or similar, and the characters themselves are being written three-dimensionally with interesting hooks that grow mainly from them as individuals rather than stereotypes about their culture.

Of course, he hasn't got around to Mother of Champions yet, so.
neuhallidae: (Default)

[personal profile] neuhallidae 2010-06-07 10:04 pm (UTC)(link)
I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that Mother of Champions is going to be the one who doesn't get an issue, just because she's the hardest one to make viable.
a_clericalerror: (Default)

[personal profile] a_clericalerror 2010-06-07 08:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Well that, and everything else mentioned so far, and it's a series that takes place in China. Pointing at it and saying 'look! Diversity!' would be like pointing at the Vixen mini, for lack of better example, and saying 'look! We have enough black people!' when the thing takes place largely in Africa.
milleniumrex: (Default)

[personal profile] milleniumrex 2010-06-08 12:42 am (UTC)(link)
Did she even appear in this mini?

The second female member, Ghost Fox Killer, was better, although she was a bit too much of a "Dragon Lady" stereotype.
ext_353826: (Default)

[identity profile] windiebird.livejournal.com 2010-06-07 02:09 pm (UTC)(link)
GA/GL looooooove!

Stupid man is stupid.
phosfate: (Bollocks! Hamster)

[personal profile] phosfate 2010-06-07 02:41 pm (UTC)(link)
It's good that green, pink, and blue readers can see themselves in DC Comics.
crabby_lioness: (Default)

[personal profile] crabby_lioness 2010-06-07 02:48 pm (UTC)(link)
That deserves to be in textbooks as a classic example of race!fail.
flidgetjerome: Hark, a Vagrant #328 (Default)

[personal profile] flidgetjerome 2010-06-07 02:54 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm going to use it from now on as an excellent example for explaining what "Othering" is to people.
thepinkperil: (Default)


[personal profile] thepinkperil 2010-06-07 03:39 pm (UTC)(link)
"We get the same thing about how we treat our female characters."

And we all know how they beat themselves up over that topic.
mechanicaljewel: (Default)

Re: ..

[personal profile] mechanicaljewel 2010-06-07 03:51 pm (UTC)(link)
They brought back Birds of Prey AND put Gail Simone on it! GOD, what more do you females want? An artist who knows how to draw more than one female body type? Pffft.
christianconnor: (The Doctor (pointing))

Re: ..

[personal profile] christianconnor 2010-06-07 05:00 pm (UTC)(link)
"More than one female body type". I understand each of those words but not in that order. Surely all women look exactly the same. That's why they have so many different hairstyles - so we can tell the difference between our wives, our mistresses and our secretaries.
ext_398513: (Default)

Re: ..

[identity profile] tornadotwin.blogspot.com 2010-06-08 04:44 am (UTC)(link)
I know! Isn't it enough that the females aren't in the kitchens cooking up the real heroes meals and fixing their uniforms? You have one whole (well not really now that the penis having Hawk is in there) comic dedicated to you and you get to speak without a man's permission. What more do you want?
crabby_lioness: (Default)

Re: ..

[personal profile] crabby_lioness 2010-06-08 02:10 pm (UTC)(link)
An all-girl series that could be read by actual girls! As in -- children.
deepspaceartist: Iron Man mark 43 (Default)

[personal profile] deepspaceartist 2010-06-07 04:26 pm (UTC)(link)
God. The stupidity and ignorance burns.

I never really got the impact of those panels though. GL didn't stick around and help the aliens with their social problems (except for removing a few murderous dictators here or there) he just saves their lives. Unles he's only been shielding white people from falling debris and deflecting falling meteors into black neighborhoods, he's done just as much for black humans as he's done for any aliens or other humans.
skalja: Ultimate Spider-Woman posing like a BAMF (marvel: p.s. aaaaaah!)

[personal profile] skalja 2010-06-07 06:09 pm (UTC)(link)
It's almost like a racefail parody!

God, I wish it were a racefail parody.
neo_prodigy: (Default)

[personal profile] neo_prodigy 2010-06-08 10:57 am (UTC)(link)
Sattler or some of the comments in this post?
skalja: Ultimate Spider-Woman posing like a BAMF (Default)

[personal profile] skalja 2010-06-08 11:01 am (UTC)(link)
Sattler, sorry!
neo_prodigy: (Default)

[personal profile] neo_prodigy 2010-06-08 11:06 am (UTC)(link)
No need to apologize because quite frankly it applies to both. LOL!!!!
divi_d: Very old drawing of my old feline OC Rashida.  (Still my avatar of choice, though :-p.) (Default)

[personal profile] divi_d 2010-06-07 06:43 pm (UTC)(link)
So, never minding the "minority conflation fallacy" or the fact that he seems to think that being accused of sexism counts as a counter point to accusations of racism (or whatever, I'm really having a hard time making sense of that one)...

The fact that he seems to be implying that having representation for extra terrestrials in his stories counts as racial diversity is just confusing beyond belief. I mean, what, does he think these works are non-fiction or something? That green-martians and the guardians of the universe and whatnot are all real? Is there something I don't know here?

ext_396524: (Default)

[identity profile] stolisomancer.insanejournal.com 2010-06-07 07:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Does anyone have a recording of Sattler saying this? Looking at it again, I'm wondering if he was going for a joke in an attempt to lighten the mood, or if he was actually serious.
autolychus2: (Default)

[personal profile] autolychus2 2010-06-08 12:53 am (UTC)(link)
Reading it, I would think that he's making a (bad, insensitive) joke. But this being the Internet, I imagine someone will Godwin the comment soon.

[personal profile] nevermore999 2010-06-08 02:07 am (UTC)(link)
Nope, sorry. I was there! It wasn't a joke. And I say this with no ill will toward Sattler. It was... pretty weird.

[personal profile] nevermore999 2010-06-08 02:05 am (UTC)(link)
I was the one who asked the question. It wasn't a joke. He was serious.
crabby_lioness: (Default)

[personal profile] crabby_lioness 2010-06-08 02:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for asking.
jazzypom: toocuteicons (kitty)

Keep digging that hole...

[personal profile] jazzypom 2010-06-07 08:21 pm (UTC)(link)
So instead of taking the criticism to heart, and having a think, you're just dismissing it out of hand? Like so? WTF?

Stroll on, DC. Stroll on.


[personal profile] cuntfucius 2010-06-07 10:18 pm (UTC)(link)
I've been ranting that these white-coded ~colours of the rainbow~ aliens were stand-ins for POCs for a long, long time, and a huge part of my frustration with the GL franchise.

hero_of_lallor: (Brainiac 5)

[personal profile] hero_of_lallor 2010-06-07 11:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Once we got past the 70's the multicolour metaphor in comics really doesn't stand up. I can appreciate those characters as a relic of a different time, anything later and they are avoiding something. There are priorities, and adding more red people is down the list.
starwolf_oakley: (Default)

[personal profile] starwolf_oakley 2010-06-08 01:50 am (UTC)(link)
Sheesh. It's "Because Dan DiDio hates you, that's why" not "Because Dan DiDio hates you people." Someone got the meme wrong.


[personal profile] nevermore999 2010-06-08 02:05 am (UTC)(link)
Hey, that was the response to my question! Yeah, I was like "...".

[identity profile] minyandu.livejournal.com 2010-06-08 11:08 am (UTC)(link)
Just like the "fans ranting means good means emotional depth". This kind of response is just too ridiculously ridiculous that I almost found it hilarious. =_=
adamant_ink: (...)

[personal profile] adamant_ink 2010-06-08 04:23 am (UTC)(link)


Head, meet wall.
sweettart1823: (WTF)

[personal profile] sweettart1823 2010-06-08 04:35 pm (UTC)(link)
You know I really don't like this Ian Sattler... Everything he says makes me roll my eyes and want to hit something. He's taking Didio's spot at the top of my 'people who I don't like in comics' list.
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)

[personal profile] fifthie 2010-06-08 05:55 pm (UTC)(link)
In the words of the New Yorker,

"Christ, what an asshole."