30 days of scans mem: Day 9: Least favourite male character

[arilou_skiff]

The character I like the least in all the Marvel Universe.




I loathe Captain America. I loathe, loathe LOATHE the character. He's sanctimonous, stuck up, and generally vacous, his writers always seem more concerned about saying something "About America" (I don't CARE about America, 'tis a silly place) than giving him any actual character. And they constantly do these maudlin weird pieces with Steve crying over Vietnam veterans or something.

But really, it wouldn't bother me that much if he stayed in his own book: He IS Captain America after all, what else is to be expected with that name? But no. He keeps showing up elsewhere, and always surrounded by this stench of self-righteousness. And even worse is the way he warps the narrative around himself: In his sueish-glory he makes EVERYONE love him. Indeed, if you don't love him it's pretty much proof that you are a Bad Person and Deserve No Sympathy. And everyone admires him SOO much despite well, I don't see it. Yeah, he's a great hero who has fought a wide variety of threats, but what *exactly* makes him a better hero than Spider-Man or Nova or Scott Summers or any other? There's nothing inherent in the narrative that should make them put him on such a pedestal, and yet everyone does. Because he's the bloody Captain America.

And then there's the fact that he's on the Avengers: The Earth's Mightiest Heroes... Only, he's not that mighty is he? Yeah, he's a good fighter, and stronger than an ordinary man, but he's still not really in the league of most of the threats he faces. That wouldn't be an issue if he wasn't TREATED as such. As if his little shield and his little fists could actually HURT the cosmic (or even just superhuman) threats they face.

Even Batman isn't as bad: Bats, at least, has tech gadgets and such, he can bring something to the fight by being the "tech guy" and coming up with the plans. But Cap isn't even that. (Tony/Hank is the Tech Guy, not Steve) so all he really brings to the team is... Speechifying?

There could be an interesting story there, Ultimate Captain America was horribly written, but at least he was a nod in the right direction, of a man from a different time ending up fish-out-of-water style in a new world entirely. Original!Cap has (rightfully) long since grown out of that phase, which makes him about as interesting as watching paint dry. Red white and blue paint. With stars.

It wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't reated as Infallible and Superior. During the Civil War there were actually people, both creators and fans, who pretty much decided it on the basis of "Well, cap is on one side, and cap is never wrong." When you have that kind of character YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG.

Bucky!Cap isn't my kind of character (I'm not really into thriller stuff) but at least he has some kind of personality that isn't determined by being St. Steve of America.

Comments

[arilou_skiff]

My point is that those who called themselves "progressives" were very little like the Tea Party in any sense whatsoever.

[halialkers]

And Communists of the time would have been rather more pro-Soviet than people admit. At least some of them. At the time it would have been a major case of Values Dissonance, to be certain, though I would note that Communists were plenty capable of privilege issues in their own right, which helped spark a new variation of feminism from women who were burned by that.

[valtyr]

The point is that 'atypical of his time' is not the same as 'anachronistic'. For Steve to have progressive views for his time - and still fight in WWII - is not impossible.

[halialkers]

And my point is that the Tea Partiers nowadays are the ones who back in the 1960s were shouting "Hell no we won't go."

[proteus_lives]

Good husband maybe but horrible father.

[filkertom]

Cap is about the American ideal. The real one, the one about Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, and how it's our duty as citizens to strive for that -- not because it gets us some advantage, but because it's right.

It's the thing that says Any Kid Can Grow Up To Be President. It's the thing that makes you help your neighbors, whom you may not even know, when they're in trouble, because We're All In This Together. It's the one that remembers the Bill of Rights and the Preamble to the Constitution are actually supposed to mean something, not merely in a historical context but right now.

Superman is an iconic representation of what his creators thought at the time would be a perfect man (ironic, as he's an alien). Cap is much the same, but his iconic nature is more philosophical than physical. Yeah, he beats up Nazis. But mostly he is a living example of the notion that freedom must be fought for, is worth fighting for, and can and must be fought for for the right reasons.

I'm surprised the Army hasn't licensed him: Cap is literally our ability to be the best we can be.

[arilou_skiff]

No, not really. The Tea Party is more connected to the conservative student unions' of the time (who actually outnumbered the anti-war groups by a pretty significant amounts but have largely been forgotten since they weren't as interesting)

[sherkahn]

A lot of people are holding onto the "man from WWII" timeline where he came from, but while I do believe the times make the man, Steve Rogers transcends that. The virtues, principles and honor that Steve lives and breathes and practices, and most important of all inspires in others. Steve doesn't quote the men of his time as his own inspiration, he quotes men of the highest ideals (most of them American) like Jefferson, Twain, Lincoln. Ideals that he lives to prove himself worthy of such heritage, and worth living fighting and dying for.

Steve could have been a knight from Arthurian times, a chevalier from French Crusades lore, or noble samurai from a great house or any of the other icons of the world, born to fight in the greatest conflicts of their time. He is the great hero, like the ones of myth, who has yet to meet that corrupting influence- the arrow in Achilles', Sampson allowing Delilah close to his hair, the deflowering of Gilgamesh, the 'moment of clarity' of Don Quixote. Captain America embodies the principles and walks the fine line of being "one of the people" while also being the finest example of peak human conditioning and stamina at that super-human level, made all the more important because he doesn't still maintains a close connection to his roots. He is not Reed nor Tony nor Thor, living far away from the mere mortals. He lives among the American people of New York as one of them.

Cap doesn't lead because he demands power or glory. Nor does he enforces his idea over the powerless or manipulate other into serving him. Cap would still be Cap if he was wearing a power suit or some magic/cosmic token that gave him powers. He leads because of the moral and strength of character he posses. It's the strength of his heart and will, and unwillingness to compromise. He embodies the very best we strive for, and lives that kind of hard life with grace.

Now Bucky Cap reflects the current America... heirs to a great legacy, but with a history of not living up to the promise of American ideals, and having done dark deeds in his history. Still James strives to be better, to be worthy of the mantle that has been passed on to him.

[halialkers]

And my point is that progressive views for his time are not the same thing as what is approvable in our time. Turning Steve Rogers into someone perfectly acceptable to 21st Century audiences in all ways ignores that in the 1940s *none* of the warring powers was something we'd approve of.

[proteus_lives]

Great essay!

I hope the movie does turn-out well and he's not an Ulti-Jerk in it.

[halialkers]

Got cites? I'm actually interested in reading this. :-). It would be useful to use in future arguments.

[proteus_lives]

Home Run Post!!!!!!

[halialkers]

No argument on that one.

[valtyr]

Yes, that's addressed in the article I linked. I mean, by all means have a debate, but telling me things that appear in an article I just linked you to isn't a good way of going about it.

Why do you think it would be Values Dissonance?

[arilou_skiff]

See, here's the thing.

I'm not american.

[halialkers]

Because people these days like to pretend nobody ever liked the USSR or saw Uncle Joe as anything but evil. Especially after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

[proteus_lives]

We've had this conversation before.

You're still not getting the character.

"Soldiers are special and no one knows their Special pain" way"

Oh, so you do understand what soldiers go through? Please tell us how.

[arilou_skiff]

I got it from the Teaching Company lecture called "Conservative Tradition", but there's a couple of others (incidentally it's a very flawed series of lectures but that's a different matter)

[proteus_lives]

I can't recall if it's one of mine but I do recall Steve fighting with the Resistance.

I read your essay and it was boss.

The movie has same potential problem as AS's post. They only look for the most obvious and laziest interpreation and completely miss the damn point of Steve.

"I don't fight for the government, I fight for the dream!"

[arilou_skiff]

Why would soldiers be harder to understand than anyone else?

[arilou_skiff]

And my point is that if he WAS fighting for the government there would at least be a point, something that could be examined and discussed. As is he's nothing. Vacuous.

But really, and my original post mentioned this, it's less the character of Steve I have a problem with as much as the way he warps the story. There's NOTHING in the actual comics that makes him any more a hero than Peter Parker, or Tony Stark, or Scott Summers, or Richard Rider, or Carol Danvers, or any other Marvel Hero, yet he is treated differently, by both the narrative and the characters.

[valtyr]

So Steve Rogers might in fact be considered too far to the left by having an appreciation for socialism.

[proteus_lives]

So?

The ideals Cap fights for are universal.

He's an avenger and hero. He doesn't fight just for America.

He fights for the whole world. (And on occasion, the universe)

[arilou_skiff]

My point is that by saying "american ideals" you mean nothing. Define them. Talk about them, show their effects and consequences, then we might talk.

Most Cap stories just takes it for granted and leaves it at that.

[icon_uk]

he could easily have joined the US Navy

No he couldn't have because he was classified as 4F (and that was generous), that's the point of Steve Rogers.