ILLUMINATI: Personal responsibility
Jan. 20th, 2011 11:42 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
starwolf_oakley posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
scans_dailyOracle once wondered if the Bat-family was culpable for the Joker's crimes since they never did anything permanent to stop him. Here's a few pages from the NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI special where a similar discussion about culpability is discussed.
First, a page where the Black Panther shows how smart he is.
T'Challa's smart, but... The problem with the general public of the Marvel Universe is that they are idiots. Some of the smarter idiots are worried superheroes might subjugate those they protect. This isn't Tony's intention here. He just wants to subjugate other superheroes. Which he eventually does. Idiot.
The full two-page spread of Hill and Stark's conversation.
Spider-Man has a simple reason for not killing Osborn: Neither Aunt May nor Uncle Ben would like it. And Spider-Man is now the *only* Marvel Superhero who thinks killing people is wrong.
First, a page where the Black Panther shows how smart he is.
T'Challa's smart, but... The problem with the general public of the Marvel Universe is that they are idiots. Some of the smarter idiots are worried superheroes might subjugate those they protect. This isn't Tony's intention here. He just wants to subjugate other superheroes. Which he eventually does. Idiot.
The full two-page spread of Hill and Stark's conversation.
Spider-Man has a simple reason for not killing Osborn: Neither Aunt May nor Uncle Ben would like it. And Spider-Man is now the *only* Marvel Superhero who thinks killing people is wrong.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 04:49 am (UTC)Clean your own house, Miss Hill, before pointing fingers at others.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 05:15 am (UTC)Not killing someone a thousand times doesn't make you responsible for their actions.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 10:19 am (UTC)And of course the real reason Osborne or the Joker or whoever is constantly getting out and killing people is meta-textual. The comic writers want to do yet another Osborne or Joker or whoever storyline, the marketing people want to put those faces on more lunchboxes, and so on.
Trying to make in-universe people "to blame" for meta-textual stuff is just silly.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 12:30 pm (UTC)Trying to make in-universe people "to blame" for meta-textual stuff is just silly.
Yes, this.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 12:49 pm (UTC)If you really believe that Norman Osborn or the Joker or whomever is an incurable homicidal madman with no chance of rehabilitation and no chance of being contained by a prison, if you really believe that the only way to stop him is to see him dead... then the solution is to argue for the death penalty in court.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 01:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 02:16 pm (UTC)As for vigilante executions - we all saw what happened when Wonder Woman tried that. The crowd reacted differently when Magog did it, but that didn't end well, either.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 02:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 03:48 pm (UTC)I think that's what happened to Wonder Woman.
Also, Themyscira did have an embassy, although it was closed down along with the island itself. You should read Rucka's run on Wonder Woman; there was a decent amount of focus on the people in the embassy, including a minotaur chef.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 11:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-22 02:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 02:44 pm (UTC)What's worse is when they bring people back to life witout showing the explaintion on panel. Somtimes all we get is "Heard you were dead." "You heard wrong." Okay."
Lazy! Prison breaks and escaping or faking ones death scenes used to be one of the main ways of reintroducing the villain. Plus you could also show off the new trick he learned that he's sure to use against the hero.
No wonder most villians seems so bland and sameish these days.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 08:52 pm (UTC)Emphatic agreement with this correct statement.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 01:20 pm (UTC)Writers have tried to blame innocent deaths on superheroes for a while now, and it really just sort of shows off a flawed interpretation of the larger picture. Superheroes are there to save the day. They shouldn't responsible for executing the bad guys any more than an average police officer should be responsible for shooting a guy they've already got in cuffs.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 04:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 04:51 am (UTC)In canon the Hulk has... I don't want to say NEVER but close... very rarely if ever hurt a innocent person. The only writer who seems to write him as if he HAS id, of course, Bendis. *shrug*
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 05:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 05:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 05:14 am (UTC)Now, Hulk didn't attack Earth because they shot him into space. Hulk attacked Earth because of the explosion that killed his people, and more specifically his wife. Before that, he didn't give a toss about Earth anymore. Only after Caiera's death does Hulk want to smash puny humans. Which wasn't the Illuminati's fault. And if he had thought for three seconds he would've realized that if the Illuminati had wanted him dead, he would be dead. Also, they don't build shit that explodes when they don't want it to. Also that the Red Tyrant was kind of a bastard. Now, you may say "but Hulk is dumb". This is Planet Hulk Hulk, who is not stupid.
So basically they shot him into space because they were afraid he would destroy New York just like he did Las Vegas. The first thing he does when he comes back? Destroys New York for very little legitimate reason.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 05:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 05:51 am (UTC)About the no-killing thing: before Bendis wrote the special there, the only reference I recall where the hulk killed ANYONE was when his mind had been tampered with. Other than that, no. (Which IS unrealistic, I'll concede. But that's how he was written.)
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 05:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 09:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 09:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 02:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 05:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 01:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 11:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 04:59 pm (UTC)How did the general public/other heroes react to the Illuminati? I know there are a few dry comments about it in the Infinity Gems story in AVENGERS, but I don't know the details.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 01:26 pm (UTC)The idea that people died in that issue is essentially a retcon by Bendis here. Said retcon was later retconned by Dan Slott, who hates the idea of the Hulk killing someone. Later on during World War Hulk, it was established that when the Hulk is not mind controlled/insane, he's got Bruce Banner inside running the numbers and making sure that even in his biggest rages he doesn't kill people in his rampages.
On another note, Civil War had more confirmed deaths in their final battle than the retcon here, which added another level to the hypocrisy of the Illuminati and left me really hating all of these characters for a long time.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 09:07 am (UTC)Basically, that money spent rebuilding stuff the Hulk tears down could have been spent on other things, stuff that would somewhere down the line save lives.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 11:03 am (UTC)Space, defence and research spending, government salaries and perks, monetary allocations to superheroes, the list would go on and on.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 05:29 pm (UTC)People need money to live, and destroying their stuff means they lose money.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 06:28 pm (UTC)If, say, the Hulk destroys the water mains and sewage lines, and as a result a number of people die of thirst and/or cholera, dysentery, etc. over the next few weeks while repairs are being made, then yeah, I suppose he's partially responsible for those deaths (although FEMA, evidently dropping the ball again, would share responsibility).
But if he just destroys a few casinos, and a few rich people lose their assets and have to eat government cheese for a while or something, and some people need to look outside Vegas for jobs, and maybe somebody doesn't have money for an operation down the line.... it's much more indirect, and not really the same thing all as directly leaving dead bodies in one's wake.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-22 01:10 am (UTC)It was a dreadful point in going postal, made by a golem with a poor grasp of both economics and human nature.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-22 03:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 06:06 am (UTC)But...what's your take on General Ross aka Rulk? She-Hulk? The Thing?
How about some of the super-villains like the Kingpin? Dr. Doom? Norman Osborne? Iron Man and Reed Richards for Clor, the SHRA, and how they betrayed their friends?
That's why Hill's reasoning sticks in my craw so much. Evil done in the service of good is still evil.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 06:14 am (UTC)Which is one less time than the govenment has put Osborn in a position of power.
Seriously: Fuck Civil War.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 07:27 am (UTC)Isn't that when Luke Cage owned his ass? I remember that fondly.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 09:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 04:44 pm (UTC)It's made clear in New Avengers that she was getting orders from a Presidential level, which while it doesn't ethically justify her, explains why she's not getting into trouble now.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 07:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 08:17 am (UTC)A member of a vast covert ops organisation, which could (if it was competent) have Osborn executed for multiple murders in less time than it takes to type this sentence, and would be justified in doing so), is whining about a self appointed vigilante NOT killing? Lame.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 01:33 pm (UTC)This whole conversation sounds INCREDIBLY hypocritical coming from Hill. I mean, if she's so damned concerned about the Hulk or the Green Goblin...then she can do something about it. Don't sit there and say that a vigilante should break the law EVEN MORE and just straight up kill a villain when HE decides that the villain is dangerous; instead do it yourself. At best, what this really means is that Hill is looking for patsies to do her dirty work for her...just one more reason to hate Hill as a character.
I mean, Nitro kills hundreds of school kids in Civil War....and SHIELD doesn't recapture him afterwards? AFAIK, last time he was seen working for the Hood.
And how's that bust on the Punisher coming, SHIELD?
no subject
Date: 2011-01-22 12:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 08:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 01:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 07:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 09:36 am (UTC)The heroes do theyre jobs right and stop the criminals.
It's the justice system that dont.
What is it with Mrvel always blaming other's insted of the peoples actualy responcible?
Like Speedball insted of Nitro.
I bet most people in the MU dont even know about Nitro.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 10:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 10:15 am (UTC)Bin LadenNitro) so we'll put our energy into nailing this secondary target (SaddamSpeedball) and hope no one notices they moved the goalposts.no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 02:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 06:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-22 12:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 11:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 11:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 12:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 11:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 01:11 pm (UTC)LOL!
Date: 2011-01-21 10:37 pm (UTC)Yeah, Eric sooo was the only sensible one on that show. He certainly regularly called Dungeon Master on all his manipulative BS. (Sigh!) I really wish that show had got a proper ending.( I know there was script written for it, and I have read it, but it's just not the same..) If they had any sense the makers of the films should have based them on the cartoon. That would have been fun.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 01:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 06:17 pm (UTC)Even if you want to argue that the regular authorities are ill-equipped in cases like this, there are organizations in the MU set up just to deal with things like this that do have real authority under the law. The real question, therefore, is at what point does it become SHIELD's fault, or that of whatever organization takes its place.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 08:43 pm (UTC)Bendis, you airhead.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 08:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 09:49 pm (UTC)When Voldemort wrote THE LAST AVENGERS STORY, its mentioned how the US Government rounded up most of the major super-villains and executed them all. The morality of the action was left up in the air.
The Illuminati are an example of Noblise Oblige which means "With great power comes great responsibility and a really smug sense of superiority."
T'Challa says it's "decided" the rest of the FF/Avengers/X-Men/Inhumans etc. don't deserve a place at the grown-ups table. Of course, when Cyclops got a place at the grown-ups table, his idea was a private assassination squad.
Namor says later in the book "King T'Challa was right too."
no subject
Date: 2011-01-21 11:06 pm (UTC)At what point should a cop decide to take it out of the legal system/prison systems hands and just shoot the guy?
no subject
Date: 2011-01-22 12:59 am (UTC)In other words, he's showing that superheros CAN be trusted not to abuse their powers and act as though they're above the law. He's living proof that the worst fears of the non-superpowered part of the Marvel Universe don't have to come true, and he's accused of being responsible for the Green Goblin because of it.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-22 09:35 pm (UTC)