sigmund_droid: (Default)
sigmund_droid ([personal profile] sigmund_droid) wrote in [community profile] scans_daily2011-03-28 12:39 pm

One of my Favorite Marvel Relationships

Ah Rogue and Mystique, two of my favorite marvel characters for each their own reasons. True to form their relationship is both one of the most complex that exist in comics and also one of the most entertaining to read. So without further ado we look at a rough time in Rogue's adolescence.

Got your nose!

I think we all know what Mystique was thinking about...Destiny, some old rock and half a bottle of whiskey!

I love Rogue's characterization here, she's lived her life bottled up and an experience like this never comes around often so she takes advantage of it.

Insert joke about the difference between this Pyro and the god-awful ultimate one here

Gotta love shape-shifters

Rogue flirts with the guard a bit more but he asks to see Mystique's (Dr. Forbes) I.D, which of course she doesn't have. Rogue kisses the guards and drains him.

Oh I should explain this a bit for those unfamiliar with Rogue or X-men in general. Rogue can drain people and mutants of their powers through means of touch but this also absorbs their memories. It's never a fluid transfer like how Prof X and Jean Grey might read a mind so it often hits rogue with feedback. Draining dark or painful memories can assault Rogue's mental state temporarily.

Turns out this guard is not a nice man and Rogue starts to lose herself. They come across the mutant they set out to rescue.

Poor Rogue, the first panel is a sad look at how she viewed herself at the time

Of note, I don't recognize the mutant here. Any takers? Is he an actual character or a one-shot?

Rogue takes off her glove and attempts to touch the mutants face but he stands up and grabs her arm.

Again, love to know if that man is an actual character. I dig these panels though.

There you have it folks. A learning experience for both Mystique and Rogue.

So what do you guys think? Does Mystique actually care about Rogue? Or does she only care about Destiny's prophecies and Rogue's powers?

icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2011-03-28 09:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Given Mystique's nature, I don't think she's capable of unconditional love, the healthy love a parent has for a child.

She might try to pretend she loves them (particularly for Irene sake) she might even, for a second or two at a time, actually almost convince herself, but she's too cold-blooded, too manipulative, too calculating, for me to ever buy genuine sentiment from her even towards her kids.
proteus_lives: (Default)

[personal profile] proteus_lives 2011-03-28 09:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Much motto on that.
auggie18: (Default)

[personal profile] auggie18 2011-03-28 10:05 pm (UTC)(link)
I thought she wasn't that twisted until the death of Irene.

I always kinda assumed she loved her kids (Rogue, anyway), just not in a normal way. She thinks of them more as her property, things she wants to own and have a controlling interest in. In her own way, she cares for Rogue, but it's a very "throw you in a lake to teach you to swim" relationship. It's stuff like trying to set her up with that power-nulling thief that makes me think she actually cares, in a fashion, for her daughter.

(What happened with that storyline anyway?)
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2011-03-28 10:16 pm (UTC)(link)
I think she lost any claim to being NOT twisted from the moment we found out how she'd treated the newborn Kurt to her own advantage, and that it was she in human disguise who'd thrown him off a gorge.

And I'd say that when you love someone as property, you're not really loving them at all, you're thinking of their value as a commodity. Perhaps the closest is when she let Rogue stay with the X-Men in the first place, but that might as much have been to do with an out of control weapon being a useless weapon to her.

I viewed the setting up with Pulse was purely to get Rogue away from the X-Men and thus back under HER influence.
cainofdreaming: cain's mark (pic#364829)

[personal profile] cainofdreaming 2011-03-28 11:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Still, later when she found out that Kurt had survived she couldn't bring herself to pull the trigger even on a Kurt-bot during a training exercise in one of Arcade's Murderworlds. And when Rogue was put into a situation where she only could save her or Kurt, over a long drop into a river by a coincidence, she let herself drop to force Rogue's choice.

That last part might have been a calculated risk for maximum gain, true, but I dunno. She's shown at least some human emotions when it comes to these two.
auggie18: (ManHug)

[personal profile] auggie18 2011-03-29 12:18 am (UTC)(link)
One of the defining moments for them for me was when Rogue and the other X-men are about to go up against the Adversary. Mystique and Rogue hug and Rogue has a thought bubble that says "Momma!" and Mystique has one that says "Baby!". Mystique looks genuinely scared for Rogue and that one little thought bubble indicates it's not because of her usefulness as a weapon. (Did we see her react to finding out Rogue was alive?) Of course, there's a big difference between that Mystique and the one we ended up with later.

Property isn't the term I should've used there. It's more like she's a little kid and they're her favorite toys. Her love for them is selfish and immature, but it is real.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2011-03-28 10:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Irene "Destiny" Adler, died many years ago (comic time) and her relationship with Raven was perhaps the only, true, genuinely felt, relationship of her entire life. I doubt there's a person on Earth she wouldn't happily sacrifice if it meant she could get Destiny back as she was, Kurt and Rogue included.

Out of genuine curiosity, what parenting techniques do you see Raven use that aren't ultimately about making Rogue into a better, more loyal weapon for her to use?
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2011-03-28 11:02 pm (UTC)(link)
I'd say she became more twisted after Irene's death because Irene was an emotional anchor for Raven and the only person she completely trusted. Without Destiny to guide her and stabilise her, Raven had no one to rein in her more insane plans, no one to say "This is foolish and will achieve you nothing".

I'd say Rogue was, more or less, useless to Raven when she went to the X-Men, her powers were completely out of control, and destroying her sanity. Yes, it sort of backfired when Rogue achieved her independence, but it was a calculated risk, and this time, Mystique lose.
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)

[personal profile] fifthie 2011-03-28 09:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Every story I've ever read involving Mystique 'caring' for anybody has ended with her fucking them over in the most brutal possible way.

I don't know what she feels for anybody in her heart of hearts but it's obviously not anything that ever stops her from being a CRAZY MURDERER so I mean, you know... who cares?
rainspirit: (Default)

[personal profile] rainspirit 2011-03-28 10:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow, Pyro. I think that's the first time I've seen him in an actual comic that's not Jeph Loeb's Ultimatum. I've kicked the shit out of him in that campy X-Men arcade game loads of times, but never seen him in a comic!

I'm always sad when I think of the missed opportunity I heard about; that Mystique was planned to be Rogue's "father", with Destiny as the mom. Would have led to a wonderfully, deeply twisted relationship.
proteus_lives: (Default)

[personal profile] proteus_lives 2011-03-28 11:29 pm (UTC)(link)
He actually appeared quite frequently in the '80s.

Totally missed, it would be an excellent twist and new way of looking at shape-shifters.
halloweenjack: (Default)

[personal profile] halloweenjack 2011-03-29 12:54 am (UTC)(link)
Pyro's first appearance was in the classic Days of Future Past storyline during the Claremont/Byrne run. He didn't have much in the way of characterization, except for being a bit of a dick--when Blob was lighting a cigarette, he turned the match flame into a big ol' fire monster that scared Fred J. Dukes.

[personal profile] long_silence 2011-03-29 01:23 am (UTC)(link)
I always heard Mystique was supposed to be Nightcrawler's "father", not Rogue's.
rainspirit: (Default)

[personal profile] rainspirit 2011-03-29 03:40 am (UTC)(link)
Ah! Maybe I got the details mixed up. I'm not a big X-Men history buff. :(
greenmask: (Default)

[personal profile] greenmask 2011-03-28 10:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I think she loves her, in that's she's emotionally imprinted upon her and regards her as family. She certainly doesn't act in very loving fashions, but, she's Mystique. Mystique's pretty terrible.

[personal profile] whitesycamore 2011-03-28 10:46 pm (UTC)(link)
I think Mystique loves her according to her own understanding of the word.

I'm always uncomfortable when I hear people debating whether someone else's feelings count as "real" love or not. It's not like love is an easily definable concept, and there's a lot of cultural imperialism - and mental health privilege - bound up in the various definitions.

greenmask: (Default)

[personal profile] greenmask 2011-03-28 11:01 pm (UTC)(link)
I think Mystique loves her according to her own understanding of the word.

That's a good way of putting it!

I'm half and half on the "is this OK to debate" question. Since she's fictional I think it's super interesting how people interpret her (this is the kind of post that would give an FBI profiler that final clue guess my favourite US procedural). But also, I hope that everyone reading it has enough fortitude to avoid any potential spirals of self-doubt or perceived personal judgement.
greenmask: (Default)

[personal profile] greenmask 2011-03-28 11:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes that's true, we certainly are all that!
jetwolf: (Default)

[personal profile] jetwolf 2011-03-30 09:11 pm (UTC)(link)
I think Mystique loves her according to her own understanding of the word.

Perfect way of putting it. Like the OP, Rogue and Mystique's relationship is one of my favourites in comics. I find it deliciously complex.

In my view, Mystique absolutely loves Rogue, and I think there's plenty of canon to back that up. But love, for Mystique, is a twisted and possessive thing, at least by more conventional standards. I think that even when Mystique is doing some truly heinous and manipulative stuff to Rogue, that warped love is guiding her. Particularly since Irene's death, Rogue is the focal point of Mystique's world. The only thing she cares about more is herself and her own survival.
pallas_athena: (Default)

[personal profile] pallas_athena 2011-03-28 11:58 pm (UTC)(link)
MysteriousMoodyShirtlessGuy's comments about "living too much" surely apply to Mystique here.
selke: (Default)

[personal profile] selke 2011-03-28 11:58 pm (UTC)(link)
I forgot how much I did love 1980s Mystique. I've never found Rogue particularly interesting, but I like their interactions.

What issue is this, by the way?
zenbro: (mystique)

[personal profile] zenbro 2011-03-29 12:37 am (UTC)(link)
This Rogue is an impostor! She doesn't say "mah" and "ah" for "my" and "I"! What trickery is this?

Anyhoo...I dislike this retcon of "Jason" popping up in their lives and teaching Rogue a life lesson about the use of her powers when canonically she never shows any inkling of self-reflection until after she joins the X-Men. It's only because of their eventual acceptance and trust of her that she develops into a heroic character and shakes off Mystique's flawed parenting. So if this takes place before Rogue's first appearance in Avengers Annual #10, it just doesn't make sense to me because she was pretty cavalier and ruthless about her power from the get-go and only begins to temper herself after her inability to deal with Carol Danvers' imprinted psyche takes its toll.

I don't think Jason ever pops up again, which also bugs me. (It's certainly not Jason Wyngarde.) Is this a recent story? Because the shirtless, mysterious stranger with nice hair and brooding wisdom ("he's not bad, just misunderstood!") seems suspiciously close to the trend of sympathetic vampires/werewolves/demons that are running around lately, and if we really want to make this retcon stick, there would have to be something already in Rogue's established character that would point back to this particular encounter. To my reading, that Rogue would have to be a very different person than the one I'm familiar with.
dr_archeville: Doctor Arkeville (Default)

[personal profile] dr_archeville 2011-03-29 01:30 am (UTC)(link)
... mysterious and good-looking superpowered guy giving Rogue life advice?

It's Sentry!
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)

[personal profile] fifthie 2011-03-29 02:57 am (UTC)(link)
greenmask: (Default)

[personal profile] greenmask 2011-03-29 06:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, it works better for me as a sort of.. metaphorical Rogue primer? Than as an actual previously untold story.
vspope: (larfleeze_dnw)

[personal profile] vspope 2011-03-29 06:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Realistically, Rogue wasn't much more than tough-villain-of-the-month before joining the X-Men (retcons and backstory-filling aside).

In AA #10, about all she does is fight (draining three Avengers, one permanently, brawling with the rest until told to retreat). UXM #158, she has one dialogue balloon before it's fightin' time. ROM #31-#32, her exhibited character traits are a plot device (she absorbs 'decency' from Rom). DAZZLER #22, she's right back where she started in AA #10 (on the job, trying to break the Brotherhood out of prison). #24 and #28, she shows some actual emotions (anger and jealousy), and that's it before she's on the bus to Xavier's.
halloweenjack: (Default)

[personal profile] halloweenjack 2011-03-29 12:55 am (UTC)(link)
The last panel of the second scan is pretty pornalicious if you take out the dialogue.
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)

[personal profile] fifthie 2011-03-29 02:58 am (UTC)(link)
or even if you keep the first line!
blackruzsa: (Default)

[personal profile] blackruzsa 2011-03-29 01:24 am (UTC)(link)
I like the characterization, Rogue's attitude, and, well, pretty much all.
kusonaga: (Default)

[personal profile] kusonaga 2011-03-29 04:56 am (UTC)(link)
Much love for the Brotherhood. They were awesome.
crabby_lioness: (Default)

[personal profile] crabby_lioness 2011-03-29 05:03 am (UTC)(link)
Hoo, boy. Abusive adoptive mothers, something I have personal experience with.....

I think Irene was the great love of Raven's life, and she's gone batshit crazy since Destiny died.

I don't think she loved any of her children other than Rogue.

I think at first she put up with Rogue for Irene's sake, but since Rogue was the only child she reared and was with for long periods of time she came to "love" Anna in the only way that she was capable of "loving" a child. It was (according to Rogue in X-Men Legacy) and unhealthy, manipulative love, but it was the best she love she was capable of.
aaron_bourque: default (Default)

[personal profile] aaron_bourque 2011-03-29 05:25 am (UTC)(link)
Fun fact: shortly before Rogue joined the X-Men, she met Rom: Space Knight, and absorbed some of his "nobility."
recognitions: (Default)

[personal profile] recognitions 2011-03-29 04:48 pm (UTC)(link)
"Where the heck is Rogue?" Language!

I like Nocenti's writing but her dialogue can be awfully stilted at times.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2011-03-29 06:39 pm (UTC)(link)
I think the bit about ""You don't know what you fool with girl. Cast those flirtatious spells, be prepared for what they bring" proves that... Who on earth talks like that?
crabby_lioness: (Default)

[personal profile] crabby_lioness 2011-03-29 06:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Have you seen the "True Grit" remake? Mystique's over 100. She has reason to speak in a more formal style.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2011-03-29 06:59 pm (UTC)(link)
And yet she never does. Mystique is old, but she's not just from the 1870's she was just around then, she's just as much from the 1890's, the 1920's, the 1940's, the 1960's and so on....
crabby_lioness: (Default)

[personal profile] crabby_lioness 2011-03-29 07:01 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not saying that she speaks in any particular style, just that time and travel have left their mark upon her speech.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2011-03-29 07:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Interesting, I can't say I've ever noticed that about her speech, she always comes across as entirely contemporary to whatever period we're seeing her in, but I'll keep an eye out, that would be a nice touch.