proteus_lives: (Default)
[personal profile] proteus_lives posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Greetings True Believers!

I have a response to Avengers: Children's Crusade #6 which came out today.

You'll want to check out Colonel Green's post if you haven't been following the series.


CG's post.

Well, Wanda. What about these folks?

Scans are from New X-Men and Decimation: Generation M.

Is Wanda going to wiggle her nose and bring them back? Is Iron Lad going to pop into the time-stream and bring them back?

Somehow I doubt it.

Let Logan gut her or put her in a little power-controlling box where she can re-power mutants one by one. Other then that, she never gets to use her powers again.

But that's not going to happen. I know and understand why but I wanted to voice a feeling that came up after reading CC #6 today.

Date: 2011-06-30 08:16 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] paultmd
I'm with proteus, but then I was also anti-HEAT.

Not every story has to end with a happy ending. And sometimes good guys do bad things and aren't looked at so kindly anymore. It happens in real life. Why shouldn't it happen to superhumans with the powers of gods?

And aaron has a point with the Hal Jordan reference(which inspired me bringing up HEAT). This is similar. An iconic member of a super team goes crazy and uses near-omnipotent power levels to try to put things the way they believe they should be, killing many innocents in the process.

And for a while I was pretty resentful that DC let Geoff Johns undo that, partially because I really liked their response to the situation that "We reserve the right to tell a story without a happy ending," and partially because I had grown attached to Kyle Rayner as he was introduced shortly after I started reading DC comics.

But then I really started to appreciate what Johns did with his Hal Jordan return, planting seeds for his epic stories. By redefining Parralax he not only absolved Hal of his blame for his actions but he also set up the Sinestro Corps war and the War of Light that led to Blackest Night. By bringing back the Lost Lanterns, he took away the deaths that Hal was responsible for, with Kiliwog already having been brought back.

And the stories that came after were REALLY good. There wouldn't have been a big-budget Green Lantern movie, regardless of how it turned out, if Geoff Johns hadn't have been writing some of the most entertaining Green Lantern stories ever since bringing back Hal.

But Heinberg's not doing that with Wanda. He hasn't absolved her of guilt in her actions. She went crazy from the stress of what she went through. She killed people with her insanity. And her response to that was first to recreate the world to suit what she thought her father wanted, then to kill even more people, then to shut herself down so she didn't have to face what she did, and now her response has been to mess with time and individually repower each of the people she's robbed of the life they knew.

So far it feels like the point of Children's Crusade has been to undo Avengers Disassembled and now House of M. These were major stories that were told for a reason and unless there are actual plans to set up major stories with a redeemed Wanda, rather than just redeeming her because she's a hero and shouldn't be crazy, it just seems kinda insulting to do this.

But then the story's only about 2/3 over, so there's still time for some twists and turns in the next 2 years it takes to finish the story, so maybe I'll be proven wrong and this doesn't really bring back Scott Lang, a number of depowered mutants, and hero Wanda

Date: 2011-06-30 11:39 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Interestingly, what appeals to you about the returned Hal and Corps is what has really put me off the concept. Everything they do now seems based around the sodding "emotional (conveniently tied to human visual) spectrum", and exacerbated (at least) by the Guardians being complete and utter arseholes.

Sure they were distant in the past, but they were also realtively unused and worked fine like that. Now the Corps is too busy fighting whatever rainbow of fruit lantern is currently causing trouble to actually do much else. If we HAD to have the Corp back (and I'm unconvinced we do) I liked the notion that the Corps were like Sherrifs, each responsible for the many and varied problems of their sector, crossing into each others territory when required or in hot pursuit. The notion of them having two per sectors was a good one as it allows for buddy/cop movie feel to it, as well as allowing dialogue to replace monologue.

Problems so large they require the ENTIRE Corps are either so large they need a deus ex machina to sort them out, plus leaving the rest of their sector unprotected from whatever is coming up next.

The stories are epic, but they don't all need to be SO COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY EPIC ALL THE TIME!!

Date: 2011-06-30 04:08 pm (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod
I choose to view the spectrum as the way the human mind processed the emotional energy.
I like that the Corps is back, though you are right when you say the stories shouldn't be epic all the time.

Date: 2011-06-30 04:20 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
If the Corps were Earth based I'd be fine with that, but they're made up of aliens....

If Rot Lop Fan taught us anything (and it did) even "light" isn't a concept that all alien species understand. Even on Earth the vast majority of species see things in a different spectrum to humans (insects can't see red, but can see ultraviolet (Poppies don't attract insects by being red, but by being ultra violet, with the red being an accidental side effect of the pigment as far as the plant is concerned)

Date: 2011-06-30 06:25 pm (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod
Not quite what I meant.
I actually thought of Rot Lop Fan, F Sharp Bell and all. What I meant was: In an effort to process the pure emotional energy that makes up the emotional spectrum, human brains percieve it as multicolored light. For other species it would manifest as different sensations. The Black Lantern Corps would produce deafening silence, for example.

Date: 2011-06-30 04:12 pm (UTC)
richardak: (Default)
From: [personal profile] richardak
Word. Seriously, maximum word.

I would just add that, as I've said before, Hal's turn to evil was the logical outcome to the story they had been telling about the character since the beginning of that volume of Green Lantern, which, incidentally, was also the only time Hal Jordan had been interesting. And yes, I also liked DC's response that they reserved the right to tell a story with a sad ending.

Turning heroes evil is like killing major characters off. It shouldn't just be used as a stunt to goose sales or generate hype, and it shouldn't be done too frequently, lest it lose its shock value, but that doesn't mean it should never be done. And it shouldn't just be retconned away, either.

Date: 2011-06-30 04:23 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Agreed, villains finding redemption makes for a powerful story when done well.

Heroes descending into villainy should be just as powerful but are very rare and even more rarely handled well; Triumph in the JLA? Colossus rejecting the X-Men and joining the Acolytes because Xaviers dream just wasn't working (possibly the last time his character was remotely interesting)? Roy Harper?

Date: 2011-06-30 05:24 pm (UTC)
richardak: (Default)
From: [personal profile] richardak
Part of the problem is that when authors decide to turn a hero evil, they try to do it in a way that still preserves some sympathy for the character, which is why we see this plot over and over again: loved one or ones of hero are killed, driving hero into madness and despair that turns him evil.

Realistically, people usually turn evil by making a series of compromises with themselves and giving into temptation, a little at a time. Of all the times in comics when a hero has turned evil, how often has it been because a criminal offered that hero a bribe to look the other way?

Yet which would be more likely to happen in real life?

Date: 2011-06-30 05:34 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Colossus rejecting the X-Men and joining the Acolytes because Xaviers dream just wasn't working (possibly the last time his character was remotely interesting)?

While I liked FATAL ATTRACTIONS, it was a bit hard to understand why Colossus joined the Acolytes. Yes, he was sad and angry his sister was dead from the Legacy Virus, but that didn't make Magneto "more right" than Xavier.

Date: 2011-06-30 07:00 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
IIRC As well as Illyana, he had also just watched his parents be murdered by someone or other for being related to him. Human/mutant co-operation had cost him his family. I can see him wanting to try something different, and Magneto's more isolationist stance might be easier for him to process.

Date: 2011-07-01 12:32 am (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Lex Luthor)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
Roy Harper?

Look here:


Sorry, I just always wanted an excuse to do that. :D

Roy's "villain" turn is not a good nor well handled one. What happened to Roy is an example of a character being taken to the butcher shop that is bad decision making.

Ableit I would like to learn about this Triumph character and do you know where I can find the story where Colossus had his heel turn?

Date: 2011-07-01 09:01 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] paultmd
Triumph was basically DC's Sentry, before Marvel ever thought up Sentry.

He was a Zero Hour retcon, having been a founding member(which was probably reaching a little far with the character since the original lineup is so iconic) that was shunted off into limbo during a mission with all memory of him being erased. During Zero Hour he returned and joined the Justice League Task Force shortly after, before being kicked out for being a dick.

Grant Morrison brought him back in JLA during the soft pilot for JSA, Crisis Times Five, where he became possessed by a 5th dimensional imp and tried to use the power to become leader of the new JLA. He was eventually turned into ice by The Spectre(after he lost Jim Corrigan but before he had gotten Hal Jordan as his new human host) who was about to smash him with a sledgehammer until Zauriel stepped in to stop him.

Then Morrison forgot about the Zauriel popsicle on display when he had the Watchtower destroyed and accidentally killed Triumph in the process.

He's a case of life imitating art, being forgotten about and lost to time.


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