superboyprime: (Default)
[personal profile] superboyprime posting in [community profile] scans_daily

Ferris Air: Where Courage Takes Flight...

Hal Jordan and Carol Ferris are patrolling the coast when their instruments pick up something underwater. Suddenly:

Date: 2011-06-30 09:43 pm (UTC)
darkblade: (Default)
From: [personal profile] darkblade
You could have had Carol go to Mach 4 and have the g-forces reduce King Shark to putty. It would have saved time, both plans and billions of dollars.

Date: 2011-06-30 09:55 pm (UTC)
sherkahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sherkahn
"You could have had Carol go to Mach 4 and have the g-forces reduce King Shark to putty. It would have saved time, both plans and billions of dollars."
That's what I thought was going to happen, leaving Hal to do hero stuff on his own.

This was worse than predictable, it was a let down. I actually wanted my money back from the comic book store after I read it in my car.

Date: 2011-06-30 10:16 pm (UTC)
louisadkins: Unstable (Unstable)
From: [personal profile] louisadkins
Maybe he was worried about the damaged cockpit casing being put under that much stress? Also, this way we get to highlight the "Ima Save YouZ!" mentality.

Date: 2011-06-30 10:33 pm (UTC)
oldmanrain: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oldmanrain
Or even just fly upside down for awhile?

Date: 2011-06-30 10:54 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
Oh, shut up with the gigahertz and nanoseconds, you Your attempts to apply "logic" and "reason" to this are like a knife fight in a phone booth!

I was about to suggest that maybe she couldn't survive those speeds once he cracked the canopy. But since Hal can apparently take Mach 4 to the face without blinking, and both humans are blithely parachuting out of a high-speed midair explosion without a scratch, I think I'll have to go to my backup explanation of "the writer was drunk."

As a bonus, that also explains:

why Hal crashed into Carol instead of just letting King Shark go down with her plane, if she was going to eject anyway;

why King Shark didn't get knocked off the plane when Carol ejected, even though he was basically sitting on her canopy when she blew it, and;

how King Shark was able to cling to the plane while it flew upside down, despite not being Spider-Man and apparently not holding on to much of anything.

Date: 2011-06-30 11:18 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
ummm wouldn't he be adept to that type of pressure? i don't know about marine biology much, but if he is acustom to the deep sea pressure shouldnt Gforces be nothing to him?

Date: 2011-06-30 11:33 pm (UTC)
star_of_airdrie: (Candygram)
From: [personal profile] star_of_airdrie
oh you and your analytical brain... let me run the equations (seriously, I will)

Date: 2011-07-01 12:29 am (UTC)
star_of_airdrie: (sharkjump)
From: [personal profile] star_of_airdrie
in addition to silicondream's astute observation that gforce is unidirectional and H20 pressure is from all directions while an object is submerged, you have to factor in for the weight of the shark, the depth of the water vs. the speed of the jet and any cross winds...

so, the bottom line:

magic + comic book science + a B- in Physics + suspension of belief = complete and total sense!!!!

Date: 2011-07-01 04:18 am (UTC)
liara_shadowsong: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liara_shadowsong
Um... since you've outlined the variables... do you want me to try to make up some sort of equation for them, to see what the pilot of that jet might have been subjected to? What situations, precisely, are we comparing? Like... How fast should I assume the plane is going? How deep of an undersea dive are we comparing to? Wearing what kind of equipment? I am not joking; I have an interdisciplinary physics with biology cognate bachelor's degree (and can look up any equations I don't remember off the top of my head), am on summer break, and could maybe use a chance to think about something sort of academic that isn't technically medically-related or from MythBusters (or, alternatively, me writing a meta-essay about Kon and phenotypic genetic inheritance on my LJ, rather than a fanfic for kon-a-thon, or, y'know that summer reflection homework I have due in a week). Please note that I refuse to add a magic fudge factor if I can avoid it, however. And the results will probably sink everyone's suspension of disbelief. So you may wish to reconsider serious suggestions of running equations on comic-book science. Although if you want to compare it to a lead balloon sinking, you should know that MythBusters actually made one out of lead foil, although they had to make it so thin that they kept having to patch it up with tape while inflating it. AKA: Liara is a nerd, may or may not have undiagnosed ADD, and should probably consider either picking up another hobby or else drawing or crocheting a lot more.

Date: 2011-07-01 04:33 am (UTC)
star_of_airdrie: (Default)
From: [personal profile] star_of_airdrie
Wow... you are way more qualified than my BA in management and social sciences, a post-bacc pre-med, and a BS in nursing with lots of grad courses in nursing, management, victimology... I'd be working out of a medical model and what I've picked up reading nonfiction (I always hated reading fiction due to an encoding and SID but force myself to read fiction - esp comics - after cognitive damage)

I was going to mention the depth of water in which the shark, King Shark or experimental model of anthropomorphized shark as an important variable. Also, would there be anything with buoyancy from concentration of liver fats? What about surface tension? Do we assume he has gills and therefore not areas of are like whales would?

BTW, did you hear about XMRV I (the 'prostate cancer and CFS virus') - it's only an artifact of a mouse virus! So now we realize how dirty our labs are...

Date: 2011-07-01 06:32 am (UTC)
liara_shadowsong: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liara_shadowsong
I am vaguely qualified to do the calculations. Seeing as how I've only got one year of pharmacy school under my belt, you are almost definitely far more qualified to determine what we are wanting to calculate (my medical knowledge, at least at present, covers blunt force trauma, g-forces, decompression sickness, etc. in no greater depth or breadth whatever other person, not in a medical field in any way, who is far too curious for their own good, although I can tell you about biologic drugs for arthritis if you like, or why you can potentially use Benedryl/diphenhydramine, which is typically marketed for allergies, to treat short-term insomnia and various types of motion sickness - the latter of which is super handy if you're on a cruise with family and your sea-sickness-prone little brother doesn't have scopalamine, runs out of the two whole tubes of dramamine he'd brought, but you have three different kinds of allergy medicine in your bag just in case). Between the two of us, we could probably come up with a viable model, if we actually seriously want to and don't get bored of it halfway done. King Shark's physiology is probably a big issue in this, however. I mean, we don't even have a model on which to base his mass! And now I think I'm going to go and reasearch XMRV I. Because I don't recall having heard about it, not in any great detail, at any rate.

Date: 2011-07-01 04:05 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
wow... this is quite possibly the geekiest conversation i have ever started.... WOW.... hey liara, hows the reading coming ;D

Date: 2011-07-03 03:40 am (UTC)
liara_shadowsong: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liara_shadowsong
My dad's visiting for the weekend; the reading will start tomorrow evening, I think. And I think this is the geekiest conversation I have ever participated in outside of a university setting. Hahaha! ;P

Date: 2011-07-02 03:15 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
ERV at ScienceBlogs has a nice series of posts on XMRV, mostly written in lolspeak.

Date: 2011-07-03 03:42 am (UTC)
liara_shadowsong: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liara_shadowsong
Fascinating... gonna have to read those. Thanks.

Date: 2011-07-01 04:34 am (UTC)
star_of_airdrie: (Default)
From: [personal profile] star_of_airdrie
There are times I like my ADD... I like my mania more tho

Date: 2011-06-30 11:41 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
Water pressure and g-forces aren't really equivalent; g-forces are directional, while water pressure isn't. That said, he's a magical super-powered shark, so...*shrug*

Date: 2011-07-01 04:25 am (UTC)
liara_shadowsong: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liara_shadowsong
Although, possibly, one could compare the force applied to an increasingly small portion of the body surface, dA, and calculate, for example, the average amount of compressive force on, for example, the lungs (which would be fairly likely to be the first organs to have a serious issue in this situation, to the best of my admittedly patchy knowledge). In one case, they would be compressed from one side, and in the other, from all places which are within a certain distance of the ribcage. Better yet, perhaps a comparison of at what point water pressure becomes a serious thread to the human body vs. when g-forces do, and comparing a typical dive to the expected situation within the plane as a proportion of the potentially lethal version. Or maybe I'm just overthinking this. But I bet I could find those two numbers and start making graphs!

Date: 2011-07-01 04:08 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
Overthinking? No such thing!

A few factors worth mentioning:

Since water pressure is omnidirectional, the force on the body is actually a function of the pressure difference between inside and outside. If you send a creature from the water's surface to the deep sea, it tends to get squeezed until the pressure everywhere inside the body is the same as the pressure outside. This is a problem for creatures with gas-filled spaces in their bodies--like the lungs and middle ears of humans, and the swim bladders of bony fish--because gas is highly compressible, so you have to squeeze it really small to increase its pressure significantly. That's why human lungs get crushed. (Diving mammals like whales get around this by having really flexible lungs that can be squeezed really small without injury.)

Sharks don't have this problem, not because they're super-tough, but because they don't have any gas-filled spaces. They use a fatty liver for buoyancy instead of a swim bladder. King Shark's presumably the same way, and although he apparently has lungs (cause he talks), he can probably breathe water instead of air with them, just like Aquaman does. So he wouldn't need much invulnerability to survive in the deep sea. (He might need less saturated lipids in his cell membranes, though.)

With g-forces, on the other hand, the main problem is pressure differences along the axis of acceleration. Accelerating head-first forces blood away from your head and makes you pass out; decelerating forces blood into your head and gives you a stroke, or bursts blood vessels in your eyes. Under really high g-forces your organs and major blood vessels get yanked around and potentially torn, as well. None of a shark's adaptations are really helpful here. As a matter of fact, sharks are way more vulnerable to g-forces than humans are, because they have lower systemic blood pressure, weaker hearts, and poorly-protected internal organs. (That's why it's so easy for dolphins to kill them by ramming their vitals, and why they can be severely damaged internally just by hanging them by their tails for a little while.)

So if King Shark was an "ordinary" humanoid shark, I'd expect him to be totally wrecked by the 44 gees of acceleration that Carol's jet can apparently produce. (It would almost certainly kill Carol too, in a story that--ha! ha!--made sense.) But, again, magic super-powered shark that can jump onto moving fighter jets and bite through their canopies…who knows.

Date: 2011-07-03 03:38 am (UTC)
liara_shadowsong: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liara_shadowsong
See, just because I can calculate forces does *not* mean I have an adequately intimate knowledge of anatomy, especially non-human anatomy, to know where to start my calculations. My knowledge of atypical physiology revolves primarily around human disease states with existing medicinal therapeutic treatments; my knowledge of application of why pressure issues are bad besides "things go squish if you dive too deep" and "your heart can't pump hard enough to do its job right if you go too fast" is basically zilch; I don't know the cutoffs for passing out / injury / death for either scenario, or collateral damage along the way, or how to apply this to a shark (or whether King Shark should be approximated as human or shark for this, which I'm sure that not even the writers know). Thank you for outlining these factors. In retrospect, calculating? Probably impossible with the information provided, without potentially nonviable approximations. And now I'm wondering about Atlantean anatomy and deep-sea-diving. Crap.


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