turtlefu: (Default)
[personal profile] turtlefu posting in [community profile] scans_daily

I am back! This day had probably one of the worst moments at the con, but it did have some good news. Also, we had one panel where DC DIDN'T brag about diversity! Too bad it was the Green Lantern Panel. But first, legality!
 

WE HAVE A BLACK GUY NOW!!!!!

 

DC’s ‘The New 52’ Panel (Friday Morning)

Lee says that having a beautiful wife made it too easy for Superman, and they wanted to restore the idea that Superman can’t get everything that he wants.

“Aaaaaand, right away, equating wives as prizes for their husbands. Also, NOBODY LIKES angst-y Clark!”

DiDio says that they de-aged characters because they had already “matured” and wanted the characters to be able to grow and self-discover, etc. He thinks that Oracle was in her mid- to late-30’s.

“DC doesn’t understand at all. I for one, LOVE Oracle BECAUSE she has grown and matured and developed. Apparently, people older than 35 aren’t interesting. I guess that means most of the DC staff isn’t interesting? Oh, that’s right, so it must be true.”

DiDio reiterates that Stephanie is going to come back. Also, Berganza (Ex. Editor) says that Oracle was a “big decision” but to have confidence in Gail. Also, there isn’t going to be a magic handwave.

“Yes, that would be nice. Too bad I don’t believe them one bit. With the compressed timeline, new younger Barbara, and the implication that her recovery won’t be instant, it looks like the Oracle character is going to be significantly truncated and changed

Jim Lee implies that Wonder Woman won’t be single.

“This can go both ways. It can show a Woman in a happy stable relationship where she is equal with her partner. OR, they can go the Classic/Heinberg route and hitch her up with a complete jerk!”

 

DC’s Superman Panel (Friday Afternoon)

JMS is running with the “Man of Steel, Woman of Tissue” idea in his next Earth-1 OGN. The woman will be okay with Clark being naked

“I wish somebody would retire that misogynistic idea. On the other hand, I wish they would portray women as more well-rounded than the Madonna-Whore complex towards sex, and I think showing a woman as wanting sex but not being consumed by it is the right direction.”

Johnson describes Supergirl as kind and funny and smart, but untrusting and in a backwards civilization.

“Okay, that sounds pretty good to me

 

DC’s Justice League Panel (Friday Later Afternoon)

Johns says that by having J’onn on the JLA, there is redundancy because Clark is already an alien.

“This shows exactly DC’s attitudes towards diversity. It’s all about quotas and tokenism.”

Wallace says that Terrific’s supporting cast will be very racially diverse. He says he wants his writing to reflect the real world.

“Well, good on you, but I still don’t like your writing. Also, I think it’s important to add that Wallace is one of (the only?) black creator for the new 52

Lee implies that the Atom is Ryan Choi when asked about diversity in the JLA.

“See, I love Ryan, but I feel like they only chose him over Ray because Ryan fulfills their Asian diversity quota”

Johns says Power Girl is still around, Wallace implies we’ll see Karen Starr in Mr. Terrific. Philip Tan says he can’t say whether Hawkgirl is still around. Berganza says “never say never” to Secret Six returning.

“Mostly good news, but now for the really bad part!”

A female fan in a Batgirl costume says she is upset about how the female character are not featured centrally in the Justice League books. The panelists say they are taking diversity “seriously”. Then they got into a little argument with the fan disagreeing. Lee mocks her by asking if she wants female characters to be “dead center or off-center” on the covers. According to the report, the audience was definitely against her.

“DC says they are taking diversity seriously, and then proceeds to use their male privilege to mock a fan who is rightfully upset about their hypocrisy. Furthermore, the audience, who is likely mostly male, is against her voicing her concerns. However, I applaud her for her bravery and courage. We need more people like her in the business. It reminds me of what Gail was before she sold-out. And she's completely right, because there used to be a time when we had a "Trinity" with Wonder Woman, Superman, and Batman as the Big Three. It seems to me that GL has now taken that position and Wonder Woman is going to be less important in the team books. It's also funny how the League supposedly has several heroines as members but only Wonder Woman shows up on the cover. And even in JLI, the guys are clearly larger/closer to the foreground and more central than Ice, Vixen, or Fire.”

DC’s Green Lantern panel had no talking about heroines or diversity

Date: 2011-07-26 03:02 pm (UTC)
kaete: pixie (Default)
From: [personal profile] kaete
I've been mostly fine to ambivalent about the partial reboot, but the "trophy wife" comment still seriously tempts me to ignore DC comics for a while.

Women are being attacked and pushed to the side enough in the real world right now, I'm not sure I need the reminder of that backsliding status in my comics as well.

Date: 2011-07-26 09:54 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
Not only is it offensive to Lois I find the idea of a three dimensional fictional character in an established relationship being called a trophy wife both stupid and crazy. I mean everyone knows what a trophy wife is considered in the real world. How does she fit that at all? Because in universe Clark wanted to marry and date her? By that criteria any successful relationship would have both sides as trophies

Date: 2011-07-26 11:56 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
I do think they're using the word altogether wrong. It doesen't mean what I think they think it means.

I assume what they mean is that Lois is a "prize".

Date: 2011-07-27 09:54 pm (UTC)
christianconnor: (Default)
From: [personal profile] christianconnor
That's what I assumed - that their intent was to point out that all her qualities make her "quite the catch".

But it really bothers me that professional writers don't realise that "trophy wife" is entirely the wrong phrase, that it denotes and connotes something pretty much the opposite of "this strong, intelligent, successful woman is so awesome that Clark can't not notice".

And these people represent the best in comicbook writing. Yikes.

Date: 2011-07-26 03:17 pm (UTC)
minyandu: "I made this!" (Default)
From: [personal profile] minyandu
Wow, they really need some P.R. help in this panel thing.

And, just see it on Tumblr, and I just don't get their BREAK DICK GRAYSON DOWN idea.
It sounds so wrong in a strange way...:/

Date: 2011-07-26 05:03 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
Actually, panels at cons are where they need it the least. People who attend cons are a pretty select audience. Usually they're already well immersed in fandom and they've spent a lot of money to come listen to the pros speak. Hardcore fans tend to be pretty forgiving, I think. (Leaving out the fans who are genuinely bigoted/sexist/et al, as they're not going to see any speech that needs to be forgiven in the first place.)

Where they need help is with the rest of the world, where people aren't in the habit of buying their product and aren't engaged enough to go seek it out in a specialty venue. But I get the feeling that DC doesn't really care about the prospects away from the base they've already got. So if they go down in flames, it's really mostly themselves they should blame. Even the most devoted comics fan has limited resources. There's only so much blood to be gotten from the same old stone. :p

What was said there doesn't stay there.

Date: 2011-07-26 10:30 pm (UTC)
salad_barbarian: A comic News Elf asks for help. Nina says she will. (Save comics)
From: [personal profile] salad_barbarian
The people who are at the con might be ok with/willing to ignore what DC is saying but there is a lot of media coverage if these things. At one time the only people who would have heard about that fan being mocked would have been the people who attended that con. Nowadays word gets out. Not only will things like that spread across the internet but with "geek culture" becoming a hot trend mainstream media is starting to pay attention to what goes on at these events.

Re: What was said there doesn't stay there.

Date: 2011-07-26 10:53 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (brainy1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
Well, if that's the case, let's hope the people at Entertainment Weekly (or wherever) actually know something about the subject they're reporting on. The cynic in me thinks that if they don't, they'll end up doing more harm than good, so far as the s_d righteous cause goes.

People will end up reading about the various kinds of identity!fail and just shrug it off as being a peculiarity of "geek culture", rather than endemic to a lot of institutions/systems besides comics.

Date: 2011-07-26 03:23 pm (UTC)
airawyn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] airawyn
Also, there isn’t going to be a magic handwave.

I keep feeling the urge to quote Arthur C. Clarke at these people when they say that.

Date: 2011-07-26 03:25 pm (UTC)
thanekos: Lora, crafting. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
Futuretech company, genius intern, "Good thing he invented infinite fractal mechanics".. Mister Terrific sounds like it'll be one gloriously technobabble filled book.

Date: 2011-07-26 03:40 pm (UTC)
filthysize: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filthysize
If I can be honest... I would like for comic books to be more diverse, but more often than not, I believe that it is a losing battle. Take this with a grain of salt, though, since it's coming from someone who, while neither straight nor white, enjoys the so-called male privilege.

The reason why DC is dominated by white male heroes is because their heroes were long established in a very white male dominated era, and the ones who are the most popular now are the most enduring ones. So of course when we're talking about central/iconic/deserving heroes, it's going to be mostly white males with little room left over for newer, more diverse characters. The reason why they keep going back to the same handful of white male characters is because they're the ones fans latch onto the most, no matter what the vocal fans say differently.

I talked to Bruce Timm at this year's Con, and he pretty much said that even the DC direct-to-video stuff will always be Batman and Superman oriented, because the other stuff just don't sell. Hell, they're even discontinuing the animated shorts because they haven't helped sales at all, and the DC Showcase DVD tanked horribly. Timm seems to have given up hope.

What was that thing where one writer leaked a DC bullpen meeting and saying that the staff at DC are far less misogynistic, racist or LGBT-friendly than their books suggest, purely because they don't have confidence that the market match their personal progressiveness? I really do think that's the bigger problem than the fact that the creators being idiots. They look at the numbers and see that their misogynistic, white male dominated books sell like porn on hotcakes, and they lose their balls.

The fact that the female fan got booed by the crowd was telling.

Date: 2011-07-26 03:47 pm (UTC)
venatosapiens: griffin vulture (Default)
From: [personal profile] venatosapiens
That is a nasty feedback loop, isn't it.

Date: 2011-07-27 12:02 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
Typical prisoner's dilemma.

Date: 2011-07-26 03:55 pm (UTC)
filthysize: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filthysize
I meant LGBT-averse, not LGBT-friendly, heh.

Date: 2011-07-26 05:33 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I did sort of wonder! :)

Date: 2011-07-26 04:21 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
I can't help but be hopeful. There are indie creators who make a living NOT putting out such prejudice-biased work, aren't there?

Maybe DC just needs to let go of the profit margins that they used to achieve. Maybe you just can't make that much money putting out comics nowadays.. but you can make SOME money, and also not be crap?

Date: 2011-07-26 04:39 pm (UTC)
bittercupojoe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bittercupojoe
That would be nice, but it's not how corporate America works, and WB is going to go with what maxes out their profits. They're willing to lose a little bit of cash in order to do "community outreach" or other charitable things that reflect well on the company, but with as little money as the comics pull in, what you see is likely what you're going to get for a while. Ultimately, you have to assume that the people at DC and Marvel would like to keep their jobs.

Date: 2011-07-26 04:47 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
You just don't understand my commitment to this blue lantern wot I have here~

Hmm. Maybe a turquoise ring would be the best thing, willpower forcing hope to turn out to be RIGHT

Date: 2011-07-26 04:52 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (brainy1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
IIRC, Turquoise will also protect you from falling off a horse.

Date: 2011-07-26 04:52 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
That will not be the most helpful to me; I am allergic to horses.

Date: 2011-07-26 04:56 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (jan1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
But you might need to use one to escape a horde of zombies or something, allergies be damned!

Date: 2011-07-26 04:59 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
Hmmm. I GUESS. I just hope that my zombie-fleeing steed doesn't fart as much as the last one I rode.

EVERY. SINGLE. DOWNWARD. MOVEMENT. Faaaaaaart.

Date: 2011-07-26 05:04 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (violet1*)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
Maybe the methane emissions will help repel the horde, though. You just have to make sure the breeze is blowing the right way...

Date: 2011-07-26 05:06 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
!! I could light them! Zombies HATE fire!

Date: 2011-07-26 05:10 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (lightning1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
I think we've just accidentally penned the Mad Magazine version of The Walking Dead.

o_0

Date: 2011-07-26 05:28 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
We're very creative.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:09 pm (UTC)
leikomgwtfbbq: (yay!)
From: [personal profile] leikomgwtfbbq
FUND IT!

Date: 2011-07-26 05:34 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Unfortunately, horses tend to be a mite pyrophobic too.

Date: 2011-07-26 05:59 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
Then they will run faster!

Besides, I am horsefart-o-phobic, and that did not stop the beast. }:[

Date: 2011-07-26 04:58 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Hope Silly)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
fellow blue lantern here :D teehee

Date: 2011-07-27 07:55 am (UTC)
endis_ni: (Blue)
From: [personal profile] endis_ni
Well, hello, Blue Lantern roll call!

Date: 2011-07-26 04:57 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
me too. coming from a gay male latino point of view.

with most writers i have read about, Gail almost always writes in LGBT friendly content (i am pretty sure she has written at least one gay character as supporting if not primary cast into each one of her books, including wonder woman) Cornell is definately gay friendly. Lobdell in a recent interview has a love for Wonder girl.

reallh for me, it comes down to how the writer executes everything. The higher ups can dictate terms and conditions, but the writer can find ways to work around that.

i'm cautious, as i have been from the begining, but still hopeful.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:38 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
but you can make SOME money, and also not be crap?

There's really no reason to take arguments from sales on their own dishonest terms. The fact is that DC can't make any money by being crap, as the last seven-odd years of failure and their present willingness to upend their business model pretty aptly demonstrate. They're choosing to be racist misogynists because they're racist misognynists; all the dutiful intonations of MORE MISOGYNY = MORE SAYULZ amount to a religious dogma that persists no matter how many times reality proves it's a load of garbage.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:51 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
Right, exactly! They think they can go back to the old profits eventually, but they literally can't, so why keep trying in this bum way?

Date: 2011-07-26 10:25 pm (UTC)
marco: (Default)
From: [personal profile] marco
That kind of makes me think of some things in the gaming industry. It was mentioned that one company says they don't want to localize their JRPGs because they don't sell here.

However, they're counting on selling numbers that a lot of games here don't make anyway. So it's more an issue of unrealistic sales goals (or them that just making unrealistic numbers to justify themselves).

I think the situation sounds like DC a lot. Like, with bookstores closing (sadly) and a lot of people going digital to read even (another thing I personally don't care), they probably need to readjust how they see their sales.

On top of that, with the animated stuff, there is zero advertising that I know of. If people hadn't of mentioned the Wondy movie (and I didn't find it at Walgreens at one point), I would have never found out about it. Or the GL, Red Hood or other movies. It's just a very silly bubble they're living in to me.

Date: 2011-07-26 04:27 pm (UTC)
bittercupojoe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bittercupojoe
As someone who is straight, white, and male, I think this probably is accurate. So much of comics fandom is continuity porn that a lot of people will reflexively choose the characters with the "richest" history, and that's mostly going to be straight white males. The last "big hit" new character was Wolverine, and that's from the mid-70s, and he was a straight white male.

I will say that the trend over the last 30 years where they went from hiring wanna-be professional writers (some of whom went on to professionally write novels, etc.) to hiring wanna-be superhero comic book writers has really not helped things. As much flak as some writers *cough*Fraction*cough* catch for playing fast and loose with continuity, it's probably healthier in the long run. They probably both have their places, and in recent years the trend has reversed somewhat, but that's meant alienating the fanbase they've cultivated for those thirty years. And let's be clear, the fanbase they've cultivated is not the s_d fanbase.

I'll be honest, it makes me a little sad. Stephanie Brown doesn't really interest me at all (altho what I've seen of her in the current Batgirl run looked pretty fun), but I did think the Cass Cain Batgirl had some neat ideas, and a lot of Marvel's non-straight/white/male characters make it into my top 10 list, particularly on the team books like Avengers Academy. However, I know people out there loved both of the aforementioned Batgirls and wanted to see more of their adventures. I will say that I'm really happy to see Mr. Terrific get his own book, and it might be the first time I buy singles in 5 years in order to support it.

Ultimately, I think it's probably accurate that what DC/Marvel wants to do and what the market will support are two separate things. I think they would like to support more diversity, but the marketing research probably shows them it won't sell enough to support the decision financially. And before someone says "Books X Y and Z did worse than my favorite book and my book still got cancelled," they would do well to remember that it's not as easy as "this book sold this many copies and that book sold that many." Nextwave, as an example, sold quite a few copies and was critically and commercially successful (for a superhero comic book not starring Superman/Batman/Wolverine/Spiderman), but it didn't go past the first year because they couldn't put it out at a profit AND have Warren Ellis writing AND have Stuart Immonen on art AND Ellis only wanted to work with Immonen on it. When the decision comes down to something like "I can pay for two skilled writers and two skilled pencillers and all the other associated staff for two books that will sell enough to be profitable OR I can have one fo those two teams and put them on something really profitable like the next crossover or a new Batman book" then diversity is quickly going to fall by the wayside as a concern. It's not right, but it's how business works.

Date: 2011-07-26 08:02 pm (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
I would actually say the last "big hit" character is Deadpool. Who is still pretty much a straight white male, but he's a LITTLE queer at least. Of course he's also insane which probably doesn't help.

So uh... progress?

Date: 2011-07-27 04:21 pm (UTC)
bittercupojoe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bittercupojoe
I won't consider him a big hit character until he maintains his current level of popularity for a decade. He's big now, and has been for a few years, but it's been a pretty slow build. Remember, the Punisher was as big as Deadpool is now back during the late 80s and early 90s, but now he... well, he hasn't dropped off the radar, but he's not Wolverine-big (or Superman, Batman, etc.).

Date: 2011-07-26 04:29 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
So, cater obsessively to a loud, bigoted, hidebound, ever-shrinking base, and ignore millions of potential new readers and their wallets out beyond the confines of traditional comics fandom, because taking some losses now to win gains in the long run is just toooooooo harrrrrrrrd.

Well, if they're that hell-bent on commercial suicide, I won't stand in their way. [shrug]

Date: 2011-07-26 05:41 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Not too hard, but too unprofitable perhaps?

Given the parlous state of the industry, I'm not sure how many losses they could realistically take without imploding. Comics will never get the news-stand space they once did back. they're not profitable enough for the vendor, bookshops want durable TPBs not pamphlet comics, but that's what the whole industry is geared towards.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:41 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
Given the parlous state of the industry, I'm not sure how many losses they could realistically take without imploding.

Fortunately for science, DC seems intent on finding this out!

Date: 2011-07-26 10:47 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
I'm thinking they would lose money at first with a new tack, one that cast for readers with a wider net, but make more money in the long run. I realize that's an outmoded brand of thinking for most corporations, but there you go...

Digital stuff could bear fruit, but I don't think they should rely on only that. Gadgets cost a lot of money. Not every demographic will want to invest in them.

Newsstands are rare enough as it is, at least where I live. I'm thinking more of something like digests in big box stores. Archie still does this, I believe.

Or giveaways through some other venue. There's been a comic book hero movie released about every half hour this summer. Why don't companies actually find a way to (crazy thought coming) hand people at movie theaters a free comic? Why don't they advertise more to people who aren't already big-time fans?

They seem to be prefer doing more of what already isn't working, because it's what they know. They are (in the words of an Indy pro I knew a couple of decades back) determined to squeeze this thing to death because they can't endure the thought of sharing it with outsiders. And some fans are just as bad, TBH.

I admit that I'm morbidly curious about what happens, but I can't make myself really care. If they're going to be timid, stupid, and in some cases genuinely bigoted, they deserve to go the way of the dinosaur.

Date: 2011-07-26 11:08 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
They ought to open up an Everything WB store

Date: 2011-07-27 12:25 am (UTC)
rdfox: Joker asking Tim Drake, "'Sup?" from Paul Dini's "Slay Ride" (Default)
From: [personal profile] rdfox
They had a chain of them in the 90s. The Warner Bros. Studio Stores collapsed horribly in the late 90s.

(Says the man who bought his Animaniacs production cel through a WBSS that went under six months later...)

Date: 2011-07-27 04:43 am (UTC)
tsunamiwombat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tsunamiwombat
Digital comics still havn't taken off, purely because they're doing a SHITTY JOB of making them. You'd think they'd be all over the digital revolution like flies on shit - no printing or shipping costs unst unst unst - but instead they charge the same price for digital media as they do physical, and they havn't embraced the interactivity and social aspect of the medium. What about a digitized editors notes? You can tap a characters name or an editor's pin and instantly jump to a wiki page (likly maintained by OCD fans for 0 cost to the company) filling you in on any and all continuity reguarding that character. The ability to communally comment on comics (see what your friends list says about the art, or what icon_uk said about this panel with the terrible expression in it), with the ability to toggle it off of course.

This would of course require them embracing employee's with skillsets they don't have but the way I see it, DC is owned by WB and Marvel is owned by Disney and both of those are huge corporations. They aren't hurting for money. With a little investment comics can skyrocket past what they had on newsstands by reaching more people all over the world than ever before.

Date: 2011-07-27 12:07 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
I think the problem is that even if they changed the writing, most people would still think of comics as such. They've been tainted by their own practice and it's not easy for them to get out.

Date: 2011-07-27 12:13 am (UTC)
cleome45: (fire1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
I'm sorry, but I'm not really understanding you here.

I think good quality writing is swell, but without a different marketing strategy, good quality writing won't matter, because the books' potential audience won't even know that the product exists.

Date: 2011-07-27 12:15 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
That's the point, I think. Even if they changed the writing, most people would still have all sorts of negative ideas about comics. So they wouldn't neccessarily see an increase in sales even if they changed their tune.

Date: 2011-07-27 12:25 am (UTC)
cleome45: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
Since they've not tried to market to anyone outside their traditional base, how do you know?

And I doubt most people feel negative about comics as a medium or about superheroes as a genre. Indifferent or unaware at times, maybe, but not irreversibly negative. I don't know where you're getting this perception from, TBH.

Date: 2011-07-26 04:56 pm (UTC)
flidgetjerome: Hark, a Vagrant #328 (Default)
From: [personal profile] flidgetjerome
Except that Static Shock was popular enough to run for four seasons and is still in reruns.

Characters like Batman and Superman will persist not because they were established in the 30s but because they're good charcters. If they keep creating good characters who happen to be non-white, non-male and/or non-hetrosexual, those characters will also stick. Jaime Reyes' popularity in the cartoons is a case in point.

Date: 2011-07-26 05:19 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
i'mhoping we will see Gear :(

Date: 2011-07-26 05:30 pm (UTC)
newnumber6: Ghostly being (Default)
From: [personal profile] newnumber6
And for that matter, Jaime Reyes' popularity in cartoons is because they _put him in cartoons_! I mean, DC seems to be pretending their hands are tied in cases like Barbara-as-Batgirl. "Well, we have to put her back there because everyone who watches the cartoons know Batgirl is Barbara!"

They make the cartoons! Make one where Batgirl is Cassandra Cain! I mean, it's not going to be a Batgirl cartoon, it's going to be a Batman cartoon, and so it's probably going to be popular no matter what. Use the opportunity to expose people to other options! A Batman cartoon probably isn't going to fail because Batgirl's Asian, or Robin's black, or any other change you might decide to make to the rest of the cast. If there's such thing as a "safe" way to make a change without risking losing a lot of money, that's going to be it.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:47 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
Didn't Geoff Johns say at one con LAST YEAR that Cassandra Cain was going to be in a non-comics medium? When is that going to happen? Saying we must have Barbara as Batgirl because Barbara is the only one non-comics readers know as Batgirl is a self-fufilling loop. If you don't bring in Stephanie Brown or Cassandra Cain into say - Batman: Brave and the Bold (where Babs is Batgirl once again and didn't have to be) or Young Justice or whatever Batman show they have planned post-B&TB then how you can blame the characters?

Date: 2011-07-26 10:27 pm (UTC)
marco: (Default)
From: [personal profile] marco
This!

It's not like the characters aren't popular because no one likes them or they're not good. It's because DC themselves isn't giving them more exposure and trying to establish them better.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:29 pm (UTC)
skalja: Ultimate Spider-Woman posing like a BAMF (Default)
From: [personal profile] skalja
I think this argument is a classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you assume your audience's bigotry needs to be coddled and catered to, of course your audience is going to end up consisting of bigoted people, because everyone else is going to get fed up and leave.

Avatar: The Last Airbender had an all-Asian cast and no pre-existing audience from being a franchise, yet it trouched its contemporary The Batman in critical reception, awards, and fan dedication. I can't find Nielsen Ratings for The Batman, but ATLA was pretty much the top show of its targeted demographic whenever it aired, and given how many more fans it had among older viewers (i.e. those with their own discretionary funds), I'm betting its DVD sales were better, too. Next year we're getting The Last Airbender: Legend of Korra, a sequel starring a brown-skinned woman from a culture that's a fantasy version of Inuit cultures. The trailer aired at SDCC to explosive reception, and I would be very surprised if it didn't beat out Ultimate Spider-Man and whatever other Marvel/DC animated offerings come out next year.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:49 pm (UTC)
filthysize: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filthysize
I'm sure I opened it up because I mentioned Bruce Timm, but I think it's absurd to suggest that non-white non-male television shows and movies can't succeed, especially animated ones. That's obviously not the case and I'm certainly not trying to make that point. My point was specifically about the DC universe, where most of their fandom are too attached to legacy characters and icons. When most fans' idea of the definitive Justice League should at least have Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash and Green Lantern, you don't have a lot of room left unless you expand the roster, and even then, you can bet that those five characters will always be the spotlight of the ensemble most of the time, while the rest are delegated to supporting characters who would occasionally get their moments to shine. Because they are the characters that they are. It's not (entirely) about bigotry, it's about strong attachment to characters they know and like, aaaand they happen to be white and mostly male.

I mean, we still have fans who complain that JL/JLU should have had Hal Jordan because he's the definitive GL and he should be representing JL in an animated show, and John Stewart is just there as the token black guy, which isn't even inaccurate. The producers have admitted that they included him instead of Hal (probably at Dwayne McDuffie's urging) just so they wouldn't have an all-white team.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:43 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
And then the parent company responded by making a movie full of white kids, because people won't watch things with all them asians in it. Which pretty much tells you what you need to know about argument by sales.

Date: 2011-07-26 11:08 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
I was trying to explain to a fan on another board why the movie deserved to tank for this reason alone. I ended up ingesting about 25,000 aspirin before the whole thing ran its course.

The best part was when the guy told me that I was being unfair to all the people who'd worked on the movie, and didn't I want them to feel successful, or something...?

[head desk]

Date: 2011-07-27 12:28 am (UTC)
magus_69: (pic#370600)
From: [personal profile] magus_69
Avatar: The Last Airbender had an all-Asian cast

That's not quite true. The Water Tribes are an Inuit inspired culture.

Date: 2011-07-27 05:19 am (UTC)
btravage: (Default)
From: [personal profile] btravage
While not exactly belonging to the same stock, you'll find very much similar cultures existing in Northern Asia as Northern America.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:15 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
DC comics sell either worse or not apprecially better since they deliberately decided to become an utterly retrograde misogynistic shithole than they did ten years ago when they were relatively less viciously misogynistic, homophobic and racist (and for that matter just plain-ass misanthropic).

Date: 2011-07-26 07:19 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
I mean it's already usually true that Argumento Ad Marketum is a load of shit based on people with bucketfuls of racist misogynistic views transferring their own shitty views onto "the market" so they can pretend to themselves that they're just well-meaning tolerant progressives, but it's especially true for comics because there is no fucking market for comics, the market they are pursuing demonstrably doesn't fucking exist in any actually meaningful amount, so they'd obviously actually be a whole lot better off going after one somewhere that does.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:50 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
It was Dylan Horrocks and he was referring to the Stephanie Brown/Spoiler killing. He said the people who made that decision and who were in the Editoral/Writing rooms were more liberal/progressive personally than the books would suggest. Which doesn't mean a heck of a lot to me. Liberals/Progressives can be hypocrites too - DC even has an in-house one in Ollie Queen. I can only judge what I see on the page and on the page I see constant misogyny, gore and Silver Age fetishism.

Date: 2011-07-26 11:18 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (lightning1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
...Liberals/Progressives can be hypocrites too...

Oh, hell yeah.

I'd like a dollar for every "Progressive" or "Lefty" space I quit because of too many good ol' boys all over the damn place.

Date: 2011-07-26 04:35 pm (UTC)
rdfox: Joker asking Tim Drake, "'Sup?" from Paul Dini's "Slay Ride" (Default)
From: [personal profile] rdfox
Well, because I can't find anything positive to say, and I did promise not to use CornetteFace on anything I couldn't say anything positive about AT ALL, here's my reaction to this set of panels:



(All credit to Seanbaby for the image; here's hoping it works.)

Date: 2011-07-26 04:50 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
He looks like fun!

Date: 2011-07-27 03:35 pm (UTC)
rdfox: Joker asking Tim Drake, "'Sup?" from Paul Dini's "Slay Ride" (Default)
From: [personal profile] rdfox
Oh, he is. Both the fighter, and Seanbaby (if you didn't know THAT already!).

Image comes from Seanbaby's "The Six Least Sportsmanlike Moments in MMA", posted on cracked.com. I recommend all of Seanbaby's stuff, but his MMA/UFC stuff is particularly hilarious, especially if you're a fan of the sport.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:05 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
I think I read a bunch of Seanbaby On Megaman once?

I wouldn't say I was a fan of MMA or UFC, but I do find the idea of them entertaining, so I think I may just have a peruse. Cheers!

Date: 2011-07-26 07:19 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
I did promise not to use CornetteFace on anything I couldn't say anything positive about

THAT PROMISE IS BULLSHIT

Date: 2011-07-26 10:32 pm (UTC)
marco: (Default)
From: [personal profile] marco
I think... I might start looking forward to this more if not as much as CornetteFace. x'D
(But we will get CornetteFace everyone once in a while, right...!?)

Date: 2011-07-27 12:38 am (UTC)
rdfox: Joker asking Tim Drake, "'Sup?" from Paul Dini's "Slay Ride" (Default)
From: [personal profile] rdfox
If I can come up with something positive to say about it, a la Tom and Crow coming up with a Good Thing and Bad Thing about the experiment, then yes, we'll see CornetteFace. This is for when I'm just so pissed off that there's nothing I can be positive about in it at all.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:45 am (UTC)
marco: (Default)
From: [personal profile] marco
Ahh, okay. Honestly, I don't know how much I want there to be anything positive to say now (but I mean, for all intents and purposes, I hope there is something positive to say!).

Positive things:

Date: 2011-07-26 10:52 pm (UTC)
salad_barbarian: A comic News Elf asks for help. Nina says she will. (Save comics)
From: [personal profile] salad_barbarian
Everything was spelled correctly.

As far as I can tell the grammar was acceptable.

DC didn't announce that all of their new comics will be printed with the blood of little orphan children.

Date: 2011-07-26 05:37 pm (UTC)
elita_5: Applejack the handypony (Default)
From: [personal profile] elita_5
Wait...J'onn J'onzz and Clark Kent on one team is REDUNDANT? Can Clark change his face and faze through a wall? Was he forced to watch his brother destroy his entire race? DOES HE LIKE OREOS?!

Just because two characters have similar premises (last of their kind) doesn't mean they can't coexist! J'onn has a LOT of baggage that Clark shouldn't

Personally? I think that the best part of the JLA cartoon was seeing Clark help J'onn!

That version of J'onn wanted to connect, but had SO much trouble. That version of Clark was normal and well adjusted and Clark reached out and said:

"You seem lonely. Would you like to go home with me for Christmas? Mom made you a sweater!!!"

THAT is why Clark and J'onn should be buds!

My point is basically: 1) Don't make Clark a brooder, because he doesn't need the baggage. 2) J'onn already HAS some of that baggage and you can play with THAT if you want and 3) Do NOT separate them for such a stupid reason! They're similar enough to understand each other, but different enough that it isn't fully. Keeping them on the same team has AWESOME storytelling possibilities.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:25 pm (UTC)
detective_deathman08: (Default)
From: [personal profile] detective_deathman08
J'onn Jonzz will always get shafted, which is terrible because he is one of the best charachters. Even in the Justice League cartoon he rarely had episodes about him, and when unlimited rolled around they benched him.

Date: 2011-07-26 11:10 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (jan1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
I loved them going home together for Christmas, and I never love "very special" holiday episodes of anything-- at least as a grown up.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:16 pm (UTC)
sherkahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sherkahn
Lee says that having a beautiful wife made it too easy for Superman, and they wanted to restore the idea that Superman can’t get everything that he wants.


I get it. We're getting Superboy Prime instead of Clark.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:55 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
Less Man of Steel and more Mister Brightside

Date: 2011-07-26 06:58 pm (UTC)
chocochuy: Kobato Hanato on a Sunny Day (Queen of Cuteness)
From: [personal profile] chocochuy
They wanted to restore the idea that Superman can’t get everything that he wants.

I think the question should be : What Superman can't get or What Jim Lee can't get?

Superman has already lost his home planet, his adopted father and his own life once. Trying to make him into an angsty superhero would be against what the character represents. We love Superman not because he does super-strange stuff (although we do like to see it) but because he is an optimistic hero that never gives up. He's a dreamer with the opportunity of making his dreams come true. Call it idealistic or childish if you want but OUR Superman would never debase himself to the levels of Emo-Boy Whine.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:07 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
But women are objects that men have to strive and compete for the ownership of.

Date: 2011-07-27 01:22 am (UTC)
junipepper: (Juniper)
From: [personal profile] junipepper
Well, obviously! Duh!

*returns head to desk and quietly weeps*

Date: 2011-07-26 06:20 pm (UTC)
detective_deathman08: (Default)
From: [personal profile] detective_deathman08
Ok I am worried about that Wonder Women, part like you said I hope she does not get stuck with a jerk. Hmmm I also wanted to comment on the lack of strong women thing at DC. A lot of writers really have trouble tackling them. I do not mean in fight scenes, but I am talking about in regular situations and disagreements.

A commend trend I am noticing is when a dc female gets into a heated disagreement, they have a tendency to show her getting flustered and extremly over emotional. I saw old teen titans scans someone posted here of Donna Troy in a heated argument with Dick. The scans were supposed to paint her in a positive light sticking up for herself. Dick was calling her out on something and being extremly blunt. Instead of calmly talking, or keeping her composure as she yelled she broke down in tears and pushed him through a wall.

The same thing with non super powered women, Barbara Gordon's den mothering and controlling almost antisocial tendencies really paint her in a bad light sometimes like when she first met jaime. Maybe because I am a guy and do not really know if it is my place to say when a women is being strong or not, but then I see characters like Wonder Women and Amanda Waller who can be stern and yell when they have to but always keep their composure.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:26 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
as far the way Barbara Gordon is written some times, i think its more psychological. Even Gail Simone has written her as controlling and Anti-Social at times, and really i think it has more to do with her "bat Training" and the fact that as an info Jockey and well, as Oracle, her job dictates that she BE in controll. Sometimes its hard for People to "turn it off". as far as Barbara is concerned i see it as a dimension to the character. (that said there are people that just write it wrong)

Date: 2011-07-26 06:40 pm (UTC)
detective_deathman08: (Default)
From: [personal profile] detective_deathman08
True that when you are trained by batman, you often learn the ways of batdickery. But she has never gone as far to tell superman he was a better example to the people when he was dead. Though I heard she threatened Lois once.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:44 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
Yeah she threatened Lois.

(in my opinion Bruce had a point there)

Now, Barbara DID manipulate Huntress onto the BoP in order to "Fix her" and when Huntress figured that out she REALLY took issue with that. (okay Huntress found her way onto the team because Barbara needed help and Huntress was being Huntress... but after that, the manipulation began) I mean Her intentions WERE good, but Really in that instance she gave Bruce a run for his money.

Date: 2011-07-26 08:55 pm (UTC)
detective_deathman08: (Default)
From: [personal profile] detective_deathman08
I don't know that was during infinite crisis and that kind of back and forth spiteful shit(not just from batman) helped break up the team along with the other mess.

I am not a fan of Huntress so I commend babs for trying.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:48 pm (UTC)
airawyn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] airawyn
Barbara’s cameo in Blue Beetle worked well, in my opinion. A strong woman doesn’t have to be a flawless woman and really shouldn’t be. Barbara’s flaws are similar to Batman’s and Tim “mini-Batman” Drake’s. Controlling, paranoid, bending reasonable privacy because “the means justify the ends” – these are very in character for these guys.

Date: 2011-07-26 09:04 pm (UTC)
detective_deathman08: (Default)
From: [personal profile] detective_deathman08
On the Blue Beetle issue It just seemed OOC to me she has been doing the whole internet genie thing long enough, and she has worked with enough riled up teens to know the best way to approach the situation. And also I think this took place after the whole tower of babel thing where people were digging into Batman over his paranoid shit. Babs was giving Bruce a stern talking to over the monitor while superman listened in. She basically told Batman that he made it harder for all of the heroes in his circle.

Of course Bruce blew her off, but still it was great that she stood up to him. Sadly it does not look so well, when we have instances where she follows his lead and alienates herself doing similar granted not as bad crap. I just feel a lot of writers have trouble differentiating strong female with conniving dragon lady.

Date: 2011-07-26 10:39 pm (UTC)
marco: (Default)
From: [personal profile] marco
I agree with this. And actually, I think that's part of what some of the writers themselves say when they try to use Wondy and some other. I forget who else might have said it, but I'm sure Morrison at one point said that Wonder Woman was boring to him, and I don't remember what exactly he said, but I think that plays into the strong woman who's composed thing (but she's only been so perfectly composed in more recent stuff to me).

To me, it seems like a lot of the strong women in DC have to be catty, emotional and/or doormats.

If they get into a disagreement, they're not allowed to keep it together. If they're not in a disagreement, they just don't know how to act.

The nice thing is, I think there are exceptions, but I notice some writers leaning towards that.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:26 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] capnduckman
So, I get the rest of it, but hos is 'Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex' misogynistic? I've always just thought it was kind of, well, realisitic, for a given value of real.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:30 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
i don't know about mysoginistic, but i don't think it;s realistic... well on one level maybe, but seriously, all it takes is control (i like that clark and lois can have sex. and have been showed post coitus) why shouldn't he be able to? why shouldn't anyone WANT to. please there are ways. Hell Smallville did it, when he was depowered AND when he was fully powered. Maybe when he was young and unable to control his power, okay i can see that. But a mature superman in control of his powers.. lamesauce

Date: 2011-07-26 06:52 pm (UTC)
newnumber6: Ghostly being (Default)
From: [personal profile] newnumber6
Well, I think the concept is that there are a lot of involuntary muscles that we can't control, and they're involved.

Of course, it's a Kryptonian, not a human, so there's no reason we can't assume that those muscles are controllable for him, or that the same super-awesomeness that gives him all his other powers also gives him the ability to control those muscles. Or, of course, the whole idea that there's a certain amount of implausibility inherent in the superhero concept, so there's no reason to insist that THIS aspect be perfectly logical when it interferes with story.

(I think the misogynistic complaints are more for some of the tone and examples used, rather than the strict logic of the scenario itself, but it's been a while since i read it)

Date: 2011-07-26 07:02 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
realisitic, for a given value of real.

Inasmuch as the given value of real is "weirdly fixated on Superman's dick
", then yes.

The moment anyone manages to pause their irresistible obsession with Krypto-cock long enough to consider what happens when you take those long, meandering wonderings about the Son of El's spandex-sausage and apply them to anything else whatsoever about the character, Superman turns into a character who kills the entire world by blinking his eyes or having a heartbeat, which is maybe realistic, but it sounds like a really incredibly terrible story, you know?

Date: 2011-07-26 10:59 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (michael1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
Damnit. Where's the *LIKE* button?

Date: 2011-07-27 01:29 am (UTC)
junipepper: (jumplines)
From: [personal profile] junipepper
*likes*

Date: 2011-07-26 06:41 pm (UTC)
practicalcat: Cropped panel of Kid Eternity as Tula (Aquagirl I) walloping Brother Blood (Tula disapproves)
From: [personal profile] practicalcat
If Clark and J'onn can't be on the same team because of "redundancy", Batman shouldn't be in the JLI. After all, we've already got a non-powered Gothamite with gadgets on the team in Booster Gold!

Ugh. Every time the people at DC open their mouths, I am more and more pleased that I have ceased giving them my money.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:57 pm (UTC)
proteus_lives: (Default)
From: [personal profile] proteus_lives
Great episode!

Date: 2011-07-26 06:54 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
JMS is running with the “Man of Steel, Woman of Tissue” idea in his next Earth-1 OGN.

It's lazy, creatively bankrupt, self-indulgent and creepily obsessive. What's not to love?

Date: 2011-07-26 07:55 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
You've also got to offer a fresh take on it, since it's been done to the most extreme way already (NWS)

Date: 2011-07-26 08:47 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
Bankrupt, indulgent, lazy, obsessive AND its been done before?

Somebody draft a movie deal!

Date: 2011-07-27 03:29 pm (UTC)
chocochuy: Kobato Hanato on a Sunny Day (Queen of Cuteness)
From: [personal profile] chocochuy
For a second there, I thought you were going to post the "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" story that was done by Curt Swan (Yeah, It happened) as part of some magazine of dubious morality.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:54 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
a beautiful wife

Literally the only things Lee comprehends about Lois Lane as a character: beautiful; is/isn't wife.

Date: 2011-07-26 11:33 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
they wanted to restore the idea that Superman can’t get everything that he wants.

Like it's really staggering the extent to which this isn't even wrong so much as it's goo-goo-ga-ga pants-shitting insane.

Like it's possible that a professional creator directly involved in producing stories featuring a character could come up with a statement that was even less related to anything that has to do with what that character is about but goddamned if I know what that would be.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:08 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kd_the_movie
It sounds weird, but I am terribly disappointed that Eric Wallace is Black.

I hate the fact that whenever the Big 2 wants to feature a Black protagonist, its obvious editorial says "HIRE A BLACK GUY TO WRITE IT!!!" instead of y'know challenging their "talented stable" of non black writers to write outside of what they know. Yet they have no problem asking Black creators to work on non-black characters.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:18 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kd_the_movie
And also, it perpetuates this notion that Black people are some alien entity that no one outside of Blacks can write accurately. I think Non black writers avoid writing Black characters to avoid coming off as racist, tone deaf, or out of touch because they feel that if they tried to be "authentically Black" it'd come off as racist/stereotypical or they'd be unrealistic or out of touch if they didn't include "authentically black" stereotypical elements of Black characters (coming from poverty, broken home, talks in slang, from the inner city, kewl 'tude).

When in reality, the best way to minority characters? Write them just like you would a white character (or whatever ethnicity/gender/sexual orientation/etc. your comfortable writing) and just throw a can of paint on them. If anyone has a problem with that, then thats their fault to assume there's some universal standard as to who Black/whatever people are (tho to include some cultural details would be nice tho).

Date: 2011-07-26 07:47 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
When in reality, the best way to minority characters? Write them just like you would a white character (or whatever ethnicity/gender/sexual orientation/etc. your comfortable writing) and just throw a can of paint on them.

I think that assuming that white is the norm is a pretty problematic way to go about this.

Date: 2011-07-26 09:10 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kd_the_movie
The post was "directed" at white comic writers so to speak (and I think its a safe assumption that most comic writers are white and feel comfortable writing white characters).

Date: 2011-07-26 10:37 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
It really seems to me that white is considered generic these days.

Date: 2011-07-26 10:47 pm (UTC)
marco: (A-hem)
From: [personal profile] marco
This. So much.

It also makes me think of Winnick and Batwing. I hope Winnick will be a sensitive and smart writer, but that he mentioned Republic of Congo/Africa being "politicized and war torn" I feel like it's kind of the sterotypical elements at play. ("Oh, it's Africa, so it's lost in political turmoil, and these people have such a ravaged and impoverish country! Look at them suffer and try to get it together!")

Even though it's been said a lot, it's sad how many writers don't get that. I guess what's really sad is that they feel they have to make such a different character when they're not white ( ie the norm). Because, you know, all those CoC just don't lead normal lives like white characters. (The cultural details are always nice too! But definitely a part where they fumble up and things get messy.)

Date: 2011-07-26 07:48 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate


You're going to have to explain that comment to me.

You're disappointed that Eric Wallace is black. Are you disappointed that he's black and is accepting work on non-black characters?

Date: 2011-07-26 09:15 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kd_the_movie
Before I knew that Eric Wallace was Black, I was surprised that a non-Black writer was tackling a non group book with a Black protagonist. That traditionally never happens and I was thinking "Good. With the lack of P.O.C's in the Comics industry, there needs to be an increased hiring of P.O.C AND/OR non P.O.C. comic creators need to have the courage to write non-white leads in their own book"

And it turns out since Eric Wallace is Black, its the same shit as usual. Black creators write Black characters because everyone else avoids P.O.C leads like the plague.

Date: 2011-07-26 10:43 pm (UTC)
marco: (Default)
From: [personal profile] marco
It didn't really strike me before, but that's a good point. I hadn't given it much thought (just in regards to this situation), but I agree.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:12 pm (UTC)
webbgirl: (DW_peekaboo)
From: [personal profile] webbgirl
I was at Comic Con but purposely chose to save my blood pressure and skip the DC panels this year, especially after Didio's interview comment about Barbara always being the "strongest" Batgirl. God forbid they actually acknowledge more than one strong female in a role.

My takeaway from the recaps:

Male character with a wife is uninteresting.
Anyone over 30 is uninteresting.
A female character with a male companion (Wonder Woman) evidently *is* interesting. Having more than one character who is not a white male from earth on any given book is "redundant".

Date: 2011-07-27 04:54 am (UTC)
tsunamiwombat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tsunamiwombat
Male character with a wife is uninteresting.
Anyone over 30 is uninteresting.

It's Supermans BRAND NEW DAY NOOOO QUESSADDAAAAAAAA~

Date: 2011-07-26 07:18 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
Things to point out that you left out (but which other people have already mentioned):

1) The woman who was there questioning about women's roles was with HER DAUGHTER (dressed as Raven from TTG) when she was being mocked by all these middle-aged males. Way to poison their future fan base by literally insulting a girl's mother because she dares to ask a legitimate question - although maybe Didio/Lee don't count young girls as potential readers anyway so it doesn't matter to them.

2) Idelson's Lois as a "trophy wife" comment. I can't believe that NO ONE who was sitting at a Superman panel said anything to him about it. But then gain I'm not surprised - I think we're really seeing now the underbelly of loathing for Lois by the people that run Superman that I used to think only Chuck "Lois is a Gold Digger" Austen (hired by Eddie Berganza and only fired under fan pressure) used to represent. From releasing those two pages of the VERY FIRST ISSUE of the new Superman showing pining Clark and Lois celebrating a story by getting it on with her "hunky co-worker" (as DC's own press release call him) to Jim Lee explicitly saying they want the reader to feel "sympathy" for Clark in that situation (even though the two have not even dated in this reboot) to moving Lois from an intrepid reporter to a desk job where she delegates authority to others. They are pretty much deconstructing the Siegel/Shuster Lois from the ground up (and less than a year after Joanne Siegel, the model for LL, passed on) and all for the sake of making CLARK look better. Can they get any more tasteless and sexist?
Also, Idelson has also been the editor for the Superman books for several years now (many of which have had Lois/Clark separated for flimsy purposes like the whole Grounded debacle) so its revealing to see how the man who edits Superman himself has seen Lois all this time they've been married.

3) They haven't said Power Girl will be in the reboot (that I've heard) only Karen Starr (and she will working FOR Mr. Terrific, who Wallace calls one of the most "elgible bachelors in the world" - joining the ranks of rebooted bachelors pining angsty Clark Kent and "dating around" Barry Allen). I wouldn't be surprised if they reboot Power Girl's origin by having her develop powers thanks to Mr. Terrific, instead of being a Superman-level hero without help.

4) Berganza says Oracle was a "big decision" (and one they didn't choose easily - which is dishonest since we all know Didio has been wanting a return to Babsgirl for YEARS) and to "trust Gail Simone". The very same Gail Simone who has already publicly stated that she only went on the book because DC was going to do this (de-age and un-disable Babs) ANYWAY and she was presented with a fait accompli. I wonder what Berganza would have said if Gail wasn't on the book (and had refused the assignment) since it seems to be that a lot of DC's ploy with the Babs back as Batgirl reboot has been to rely on reader confidence and personal liking/trust of Gail Simone. They had already decided the direction they were going to go in, with or without Gail so what if they had given the book say to Eric "Titans" Wallace or JT "Rise of Arsenal" Krul? What then?

Seems to me that the DC Higher-Ups (minus Diane Nelson) seem to be coming out of this reboot and Comic-Com as supremely arrogant and condescending (even more so than they ever were before)...and none of them seem to realize it (and if they do they don't seem to care). How do you run a business with such an attitude towards your own consumers?

Date: 2011-07-26 07:42 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
3) Power Girl lives on on my shelf. I might have to be "content" with just that.

4) Perhaps DC might have been more advised to throw a creator with a less positive reputation (though Krul did win an award for the rise of Arsenal and Robinson was nominated for an Eisner last year) rather than tarnish the reputation and relationship that Gail Simone has with fans.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:46 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
Can they get any more tasteless and sexist?

They could fail at making Clark look sympathetic by having him actually come across as a needy douche / creepy eavesdropper while not having Lois or her Hunky McHunk actually do anything wrong, while still giving every indication that THEY believe Clark is sympathetic in this situation.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:58 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
I know. If you go by what we're "supposed" to believe (i.e. that L&C have not only never dated in five years but she doesn't even know him that well and thinks he's a loner) then Clark comes off as extremely creepy listening in on her and her BF and visibly pining after her. But DC wants to have it both ways - they want to get rid of the L&C relationship/marriage but they want the reader's/fan's knowledge of in the previous continuity (and television shows/movies/cartoons) to make us feel "sympathetic" (to use Lee's phrase) for Clark. Those two pages that DC released and DC trumpeting the fact that Lois has a new (non-Clark) boyfriend to the national (non-comic) media - while Clark is merely a "bachelor" - is basically telling us that DC wants Lois to be the bad guy here because even non-comics readers (especially ones who grew up on Smallville or the cartoons) knows that L&C should be together.

And that's why what they're doing is tasteless. It's not the idea that Lois has a boyfriend (and she did before she and Clark got together in the present post-Crisis continuity) it's that they're marketing that fact as a reason to buy the book and root for angsty pining lonely Superman (at Lois's expense)

Date: 2011-07-26 10:41 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
wait, they wanted people to feel sorry for Clark in that situation. When they showed him as able to hear her conversations at the end of the pages. Did they not see one of the biggest compalints about Superman returns, him watching Lois, Richard and Jason?

I mean maybe if there'd been no super-hearing at the end, but by showing the super-hearing he involved himself in an intimate situation without their permission.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:57 pm (UTC)
bluefall: (amazon queen)
From: [personal profile] bluefall
Jim Lee implies that Wonder Woman won’t be single.

Goodbye, Diana. You were a Wonder while you lasted, and I'll always remember you in my heart.

*gives crossed-wrist Amazon salute*

Date: 2011-07-26 07:59 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
Does he say that she'll have a male partner?

(still, we both know that she'll either be with Batman or Superman while she lies back and thinks of Themyscira)

Date: 2011-07-26 08:27 pm (UTC)
bluefall: (amazon queen)
From: [personal profile] bluefall
Does he really need to?

I'm laying decent odds on Steve Trevor, actually. Reboot and all. I can't believe I'm actually saying it, but I'd be a little relieved if it's just Trinityshipping, because at least that's guaranteed not to last thanks to Lois and Selina.

Date: 2011-07-26 08:49 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
some evidence does seem to point that way. though i would need time to find links...

Date: 2011-07-26 08:09 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: (ask the questions)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
you'd give up on wonder woman because she's not single? how does that detract from her character? I mean i could see you dropping the title if it wasn't well written...

Date: 2011-07-26 08:49 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
Lee says that having a beautiful wife made it too easy for Superman, and they wanted to restore the idea that Superman can’t get everything that he wants.

Huh. Now, if I wanted to communicate that idea, I'd probably focus on illustrating how Superman wants more than just a wife what is hot. (Or even--shock!--a wife what is smart, brave, confident, successful and kind.) Maybe show how Superman wishes for universal peace and happiness, and the reformation of criminals like Luthor, and the impossible survival of his fellow Kryptonians. In fact, I could have sworn that a lot of writers have shown Superman having lofty, challenging goals like that.

But I guess you could also go this path and make Superman's new life goal getting into a hot girl's pants. That's character evolution, kind of.

Johns says that by having J’onn on the JLA, there is redundancy because Clark is already an alien.

Clark, even nuClark, is a biologically alien Kansas farm boy. J'onn actually grew up in and became an established, successful member of an alien culture, with a duty and a family, and then was ripped away from everything and everyone he knew.

It's a bit troubling that a writer of science-fictiony comics would consider these two characters redundant.

Date: 2011-07-26 09:03 pm (UTC)
bluefall: (skeptical Cheetah)
From: [personal profile] bluefall
But those goals aren't relatable.

Date: 2011-07-27 07:40 am (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
Lee says that having a beautiful wife made it too easy for Superman, and they wanted to restore the idea that Superman can’t get everything that he wants.

Now I want to see a Superman who is alone and desperate and tries it on with every woman that he meets. Maybe in one issue he wears a shirt saying THE MAN (arrow pointing to face) THE LEGEND (arrow pointing to crotch), or saying to Wonder Woman "Nice legs, what time do they open"?

Date: 2011-07-27 02:20 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
And then goes home and broods about it.

"I bet women liked it when you made the V-sign and waggled your tongue at them on Krypton. FOREVER ALONE"

Date: 2011-07-27 08:46 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
Right... I'm going to do some re-writing bringing old Superman/Lois scenes into the new DCU

Date: 2011-07-26 09:56 pm (UTC)
shadeedge: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadeedge
I find myself thinking bullshit on the earlier point where Didio challenged questioners as to which black or female writers/artists/creative types they'd like to have working for them.

I mean, in the first place, in order to get the kind of name recognition that would require means having worked for one of the larger companies in the first place. It seems like a self-defeating principle - if you want non-white male creatives, you need to be able to say who you want; in order to say who you want, you have to be aware of their work.

If media-wide the comics industry has a very low ratio of non-white male creatives, which they do, then logically there's not going to be many someone could name off the top of their heads, because there aren't many people in those positions. It's a vicious cycle, and either a poor or a disingenuous question to pose (i'd probably just guess poor).

Date: 2011-07-26 10:54 pm (UTC)
marco: (Default)
From: [personal profile] marco
Isn't that how everything is with DC? One, ugly and vicious cycle?

Date: 2011-07-26 11:35 pm (UTC)
shadeedge: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadeedge
Well, maybe so. I just felt like sharing that thought since it seemed like it was an attempt at a reversal by Didio - if the fans in question couldn't name particular creatives they'd like to see, clearly, they're the ones in the wrong - which I really didn't like.

Date: 2011-07-27 05:14 am (UTC)
marco: (Default)
From: [personal profile] marco
Oh yeah, I definitely agree. And I'm glad you did point it out. It's just a shame that that's how it is with them.

Date: 2011-07-27 12:32 am (UTC)
terabient: A girl looks up at a glowing machine (Default)
From: [personal profile] terabient
Also important: it's not a reader's job to find writers for editors. If readers say 'hey we'd like to see more female creators/writers of color' then editors better go out and find some. That's part of their job.

Asking readers to suggest writers just highlights how poorly editors are doing when it comes to seeking and nurturing new talent.

Date: 2011-07-27 02:31 am (UTC)
shadeedge: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadeedge
Not to mention, it's false. As you say, it's the editor's job to find these people, and within their responsibility to at least known of possible ones even if they don't hire them. But also it's not as though they're going to take, based on the words of a group of (admittedly) fans in one room, a hiring decision. They're not going to suddenly go "Hey, someone suggested Person A; i'm convinced where I wasn't before!".

There would seem to be little point beyond a patronising "thank you for your valuable opinion", or the "Haha, you can't name many, you're the bad one!" attempted reversal.

Date: 2011-07-26 10:44 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
when are they going to take away Bruce Wayne's money. It makes things to easy for him.

Date: 2011-07-26 10:56 pm (UTC)
marco: (Default)
From: [personal profile] marco
Hah. Nicely put.

Maybe in their minds, women and money aren't interchangeable though, since money is higher up on the scale than women. (Money can't cheat on you, make you jealous, etc.)

Date: 2011-07-26 11:15 pm (UTC)
salad_barbarian: K-ON girl (Fan sparkle)
From: [personal profile] salad_barbarian
Jim Lee implies that Wonder Woman won’t be single.

Did DC get the rights to Captain America/Steve Rogers?

*holds tight to his blue lantern ring*

Date: 2011-07-27 12:36 am (UTC)
sil: Sim Eun Jin (DRUNK TIME!)
From: [personal profile] sil
Oh, HELL no. Then they'd ruin him too.

Date: 2011-07-27 06:54 am (UTC)
proteus_lives: (Default)
From: [personal profile] proteus_lives
Diana/Steve is one of my crossover OTPs but I doubt it would end in the hands of these people.

Date: 2011-07-26 11:24 pm (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Lex Luthor)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
Jim Lee implies that Wonder Woman won’t be single.

People I ship WW with: Artemis, Io, Batman. There you go. Otherwise, most love interest they tend to set her up with just..never interests me. They never make me care. That includes Steve Trevor, even though I liked him in the animated film, but still a bit iffy about him being love interest material. Gotta sell me. And don't get me started on Superman/WW. Also good god, no more shipping of WW/Aquaman. Guy is married for god's sake. So if they're not gonna do it right, I'd rather keep her single.


A female fan in a Batgirl costume says she is upset about how the female character are not featured centrally in the Justice League books. The panelists say they are taking diversity “seriously”. Then they got into a little argument with the fan disagreeing. Lee mocks her by asking if she wants female characters to be “dead center or off-center” on the covers. According to the report, the audience was definitely against her.

When Lois was referred to as a trophy wife, I pointed out how some of the fans actually nodded in agreement. Then when I read this...all I can think is...my worst fear of this reboot has come to fruition...fans who actually like the stupid shit. I mean...what the hell fans? So you agree that Lois Lane is a trophy wife? Don't like that someone is willing to speak out against your beloved company in regards to the treatment of women as well as diversity?

Sometimes creators get too much of the credit when there are certain groups of fans who put ammo in the gun. What's sad is..this represents how the creators have such egos that instead of taking criticisms, taking into account the shit that fans don't like, and admitting to their mistakes, they rather listen to those who are onboard with their stupid ass decisions as justification. They will look for any small excuse to justify the stupid and thus keep it around.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:14 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
I've always found the entire... Thing with WW and romance to be kind of... I don't really know how to describe it, but... Odd. It's like people having some weird virginity... Thing about her, that she can't be in love or have sex because... I don't know.

It's particularly strange considering her origins, but it seems to be there.

Date: 2011-07-27 01:00 am (UTC)
terabient: Chris PUNCHING A FUCKING BOULDER (Resident Evil: BOULDER PUNCHING RAEG)
From: [personal profile] terabient
Lee says that having a beautiful wife made it too easy for Superman, and they wanted to restore the idea that Superman can’t get everything that he wants.

Oh, FUCK THIS. FUCK THIS FOREVER.

You know why I like Superman, DC? You know who my favorite comic book character ever is? It's Lois fuckin' Lane, because she's *awesome* all on her own. She's a Pulitzer prize winning journalist, people give her respect because she demands and deserves it, her husband adores her and will never cheat on her and is also a superpowered boy scout at his other job, hell, even her IN-LAWS are cool. Fuck Superman-as-wish-fulfillment, Lois Lane is MY wish fulfillment, the character who inspires me, the character I admire and want to be like.

But DC doesn't care about all of that, now. Never mind that Lois has just as much history, is just as important to the Superman mythos as Clark/Superman is himself, is a character who has her own stories to tell. DC sees Lois as a Nice Thing For Clark to Have. Lois' relationships with other men aren't being portrayed as character development for her - they exist to stab Clark in the heart in a misguided attempt to make him 'sympathetic' and 'relatable.'

Great job at turning one of your legacy characters into a 'trophy,' DC!

Date: 2011-07-27 06:00 am (UTC)
blackruzsa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blackruzsa
The way this is going, I got a vivid image of S_D banning most DC comics for the misogyny.

In that line of thought, I read through almost every Marvel comic in our library so I decided, "Hey, maybe I'll try DC".

I did, and, well, one of them was kind of....
Let me just say if it wasn't a library book, I'd have burned it. The way they treated women in it was sickening.

I know not all of DC does that, but I fear opening any DC comic for any surprise misogyny attacks.

Date: 2011-07-27 07:47 am (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
Which book was that?

Date: 2011-07-27 09:39 am (UTC)
blackruzsa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blackruzsa
I forgot the name of the whole volume, but it was the one where Poison Ivy was attacked by plants that were a mutated hodgepodge of people she killed and fed to her 'babies'.

It was a very obvious excuse to get her naked and have her subdued by vines. If it were any more obvious it'd have been internet porn. It was unnecessary and disgusting.... and this coming from someone who is not easily offended.

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