turtlefu: (Default)
[personal profile] turtlefu posting in [community profile] scans_daily

I am back! This day had probably one of the worst moments at the con, but it did have some good news. Also, we had one panel where DC DIDN'T brag about diversity! Too bad it was the Green Lantern Panel. But first, legality!



DC’s ‘The New 52’ Panel (Friday Morning)

Lee says that having a beautiful wife made it too easy for Superman, and they wanted to restore the idea that Superman can’t get everything that he wants.

“Aaaaaand, right away, equating wives as prizes for their husbands. Also, NOBODY LIKES angst-y Clark!”

DiDio says that they de-aged characters because they had already “matured” and wanted the characters to be able to grow and self-discover, etc. He thinks that Oracle was in her mid- to late-30’s.

“DC doesn’t understand at all. I for one, LOVE Oracle BECAUSE she has grown and matured and developed. Apparently, people older than 35 aren’t interesting. I guess that means most of the DC staff isn’t interesting? Oh, that’s right, so it must be true.”

DiDio reiterates that Stephanie is going to come back. Also, Berganza (Ex. Editor) says that Oracle was a “big decision” but to have confidence in Gail. Also, there isn’t going to be a magic handwave.

“Yes, that would be nice. Too bad I don’t believe them one bit. With the compressed timeline, new younger Barbara, and the implication that her recovery won’t be instant, it looks like the Oracle character is going to be significantly truncated and changed

Jim Lee implies that Wonder Woman won’t be single.

“This can go both ways. It can show a Woman in a happy stable relationship where she is equal with her partner. OR, they can go the Classic/Heinberg route and hitch her up with a complete jerk!”


DC’s Superman Panel (Friday Afternoon)

JMS is running with the “Man of Steel, Woman of Tissue” idea in his next Earth-1 OGN. The woman will be okay with Clark being naked

“I wish somebody would retire that misogynistic idea. On the other hand, I wish they would portray women as more well-rounded than the Madonna-Whore complex towards sex, and I think showing a woman as wanting sex but not being consumed by it is the right direction.”

Johnson describes Supergirl as kind and funny and smart, but untrusting and in a backwards civilization.

“Okay, that sounds pretty good to me


DC’s Justice League Panel (Friday Later Afternoon)

Johns says that by having J’onn on the JLA, there is redundancy because Clark is already an alien.

“This shows exactly DC’s attitudes towards diversity. It’s all about quotas and tokenism.”

Wallace says that Terrific’s supporting cast will be very racially diverse. He says he wants his writing to reflect the real world.

“Well, good on you, but I still don’t like your writing. Also, I think it’s important to add that Wallace is one of (the only?) black creator for the new 52

Lee implies that the Atom is Ryan Choi when asked about diversity in the JLA.

“See, I love Ryan, but I feel like they only chose him over Ray because Ryan fulfills their Asian diversity quota”

Johns says Power Girl is still around, Wallace implies we’ll see Karen Starr in Mr. Terrific. Philip Tan says he can’t say whether Hawkgirl is still around. Berganza says “never say never” to Secret Six returning.

“Mostly good news, but now for the really bad part!”

A female fan in a Batgirl costume says she is upset about how the female character are not featured centrally in the Justice League books. The panelists say they are taking diversity “seriously”. Then they got into a little argument with the fan disagreeing. Lee mocks her by asking if she wants female characters to be “dead center or off-center” on the covers. According to the report, the audience was definitely against her.

“DC says they are taking diversity seriously, and then proceeds to use their male privilege to mock a fan who is rightfully upset about their hypocrisy. Furthermore, the audience, who is likely mostly male, is against her voicing her concerns. However, I applaud her for her bravery and courage. We need more people like her in the business. It reminds me of what Gail was before she sold-out. And she's completely right, because there used to be a time when we had a "Trinity" with Wonder Woman, Superman, and Batman as the Big Three. It seems to me that GL has now taken that position and Wonder Woman is going to be less important in the team books. It's also funny how the League supposedly has several heroines as members but only Wonder Woman shows up on the cover. And even in JLI, the guys are clearly larger/closer to the foreground and more central than Ice, Vixen, or Fire.”

DC’s Green Lantern panel had no talking about heroines or diversity

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Date: 2011-07-26 03:02 pm (UTC)
kaete: pixie (Default)
From: [personal profile] kaete
I've been mostly fine to ambivalent about the partial reboot, but the "trophy wife" comment still seriously tempts me to ignore DC comics for a while.

Women are being attacked and pushed to the side enough in the real world right now, I'm not sure I need the reminder of that backsliding status in my comics as well.

Date: 2011-07-26 03:17 pm (UTC)
minyandu: "I made this!" (Default)
From: [personal profile] minyandu
Wow, they really need some P.R. help in this panel thing.

And, just see it on Tumblr, and I just don't get their BREAK DICK GRAYSON DOWN idea.
It sounds so wrong in a strange way...:/

Date: 2011-07-26 03:23 pm (UTC)
airawyn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] airawyn
Also, there isn’t going to be a magic handwave.

I keep feeling the urge to quote Arthur C. Clarke at these people when they say that.

Date: 2011-07-26 03:25 pm (UTC)
thanekos: Lora, crafting. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
Futuretech company, genius intern, "Good thing he invented infinite fractal mechanics".. Mister Terrific sounds like it'll be one gloriously technobabble filled book.

Date: 2011-07-26 03:40 pm (UTC)
filthysize: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filthysize
If I can be honest... I would like for comic books to be more diverse, but more often than not, I believe that it is a losing battle. Take this with a grain of salt, though, since it's coming from someone who, while neither straight nor white, enjoys the so-called male privilege.

The reason why DC is dominated by white male heroes is because their heroes were long established in a very white male dominated era, and the ones who are the most popular now are the most enduring ones. So of course when we're talking about central/iconic/deserving heroes, it's going to be mostly white males with little room left over for newer, more diverse characters. The reason why they keep going back to the same handful of white male characters is because they're the ones fans latch onto the most, no matter what the vocal fans say differently.

I talked to Bruce Timm at this year's Con, and he pretty much said that even the DC direct-to-video stuff will always be Batman and Superman oriented, because the other stuff just don't sell. Hell, they're even discontinuing the animated shorts because they haven't helped sales at all, and the DC Showcase DVD tanked horribly. Timm seems to have given up hope.

What was that thing where one writer leaked a DC bullpen meeting and saying that the staff at DC are far less misogynistic, racist or LGBT-friendly than their books suggest, purely because they don't have confidence that the market match their personal progressiveness? I really do think that's the bigger problem than the fact that the creators being idiots. They look at the numbers and see that their misogynistic, white male dominated books sell like porn on hotcakes, and they lose their balls.

The fact that the female fan got booed by the crowd was telling.

Date: 2011-07-26 03:47 pm (UTC)
venatosapiens: griffin vulture (Default)
From: [personal profile] venatosapiens
That is a nasty feedback loop, isn't it.

Date: 2011-07-26 03:55 pm (UTC)
filthysize: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filthysize
I meant LGBT-averse, not LGBT-friendly, heh.

Date: 2011-07-26 04:21 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
I can't help but be hopeful. There are indie creators who make a living NOT putting out such prejudice-biased work, aren't there?

Maybe DC just needs to let go of the profit margins that they used to achieve. Maybe you just can't make that much money putting out comics nowadays.. but you can make SOME money, and also not be crap?

Date: 2011-07-26 04:27 pm (UTC)
bittercupojoe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bittercupojoe
As someone who is straight, white, and male, I think this probably is accurate. So much of comics fandom is continuity porn that a lot of people will reflexively choose the characters with the "richest" history, and that's mostly going to be straight white males. The last "big hit" new character was Wolverine, and that's from the mid-70s, and he was a straight white male.

I will say that the trend over the last 30 years where they went from hiring wanna-be professional writers (some of whom went on to professionally write novels, etc.) to hiring wanna-be superhero comic book writers has really not helped things. As much flak as some writers *cough*Fraction*cough* catch for playing fast and loose with continuity, it's probably healthier in the long run. They probably both have their places, and in recent years the trend has reversed somewhat, but that's meant alienating the fanbase they've cultivated for those thirty years. And let's be clear, the fanbase they've cultivated is not the s_d fanbase.

I'll be honest, it makes me a little sad. Stephanie Brown doesn't really interest me at all (altho what I've seen of her in the current Batgirl run looked pretty fun), but I did think the Cass Cain Batgirl had some neat ideas, and a lot of Marvel's non-straight/white/male characters make it into my top 10 list, particularly on the team books like Avengers Academy. However, I know people out there loved both of the aforementioned Batgirls and wanted to see more of their adventures. I will say that I'm really happy to see Mr. Terrific get his own book, and it might be the first time I buy singles in 5 years in order to support it.

Ultimately, I think it's probably accurate that what DC/Marvel wants to do and what the market will support are two separate things. I think they would like to support more diversity, but the marketing research probably shows them it won't sell enough to support the decision financially. And before someone says "Books X Y and Z did worse than my favorite book and my book still got cancelled," they would do well to remember that it's not as easy as "this book sold this many copies and that book sold that many." Nextwave, as an example, sold quite a few copies and was critically and commercially successful (for a superhero comic book not starring Superman/Batman/Wolverine/Spiderman), but it didn't go past the first year because they couldn't put it out at a profit AND have Warren Ellis writing AND have Stuart Immonen on art AND Ellis only wanted to work with Immonen on it. When the decision comes down to something like "I can pay for two skilled writers and two skilled pencillers and all the other associated staff for two books that will sell enough to be profitable OR I can have one fo those two teams and put them on something really profitable like the next crossover or a new Batman book" then diversity is quickly going to fall by the wayside as a concern. It's not right, but it's how business works.

Date: 2011-07-26 04:29 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
So, cater obsessively to a loud, bigoted, hidebound, ever-shrinking base, and ignore millions of potential new readers and their wallets out beyond the confines of traditional comics fandom, because taking some losses now to win gains in the long run is just toooooooo harrrrrrrrd.

Well, if they're that hell-bent on commercial suicide, I won't stand in their way. [shrug]

Date: 2011-07-26 04:35 pm (UTC)
rdfox: Joker asking Tim Drake, "'Sup?" from Paul Dini's "Slay Ride" (Default)
From: [personal profile] rdfox
Well, because I can't find anything positive to say, and I did promise not to use CornetteFace on anything I couldn't say anything positive about AT ALL, here's my reaction to this set of panels:

(All credit to Seanbaby for the image; here's hoping it works.)

Date: 2011-07-26 04:39 pm (UTC)
bittercupojoe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bittercupojoe
That would be nice, but it's not how corporate America works, and WB is going to go with what maxes out their profits. They're willing to lose a little bit of cash in order to do "community outreach" or other charitable things that reflect well on the company, but with as little money as the comics pull in, what you see is likely what you're going to get for a while. Ultimately, you have to assume that the people at DC and Marvel would like to keep their jobs.

Date: 2011-07-26 04:47 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
You just don't understand my commitment to this blue lantern wot I have here~

Hmm. Maybe a turquoise ring would be the best thing, willpower forcing hope to turn out to be RIGHT

Date: 2011-07-26 04:50 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
He looks like fun!

Date: 2011-07-26 04:52 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (brainy1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
IIRC, Turquoise will also protect you from falling off a horse.

Date: 2011-07-26 04:52 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
That will not be the most helpful to me; I am allergic to horses.

Date: 2011-07-26 04:56 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (jan1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
But you might need to use one to escape a horde of zombies or something, allergies be damned!

Date: 2011-07-26 04:56 pm (UTC)
flidgetjerome: Hark, a Vagrant #328 (Default)
From: [personal profile] flidgetjerome
Except that Static Shock was popular enough to run for four seasons and is still in reruns.

Characters like Batman and Superman will persist not because they were established in the 30s but because they're good charcters. If they keep creating good characters who happen to be non-white, non-male and/or non-hetrosexual, those characters will also stick. Jaime Reyes' popularity in the cartoons is a case in point.

Date: 2011-07-26 04:57 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
me too. coming from a gay male latino point of view.

with most writers i have read about, Gail almost always writes in LGBT friendly content (i am pretty sure she has written at least one gay character as supporting if not primary cast into each one of her books, including wonder woman) Cornell is definately gay friendly. Lobdell in a recent interview has a love for Wonder girl.

reallh for me, it comes down to how the writer executes everything. The higher ups can dictate terms and conditions, but the writer can find ways to work around that.

i'm cautious, as i have been from the begining, but still hopeful.

Date: 2011-07-26 04:58 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Hope Silly)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
fellow blue lantern here :D teehee

Date: 2011-07-26 04:59 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
Hmmm. I GUESS. I just hope that my zombie-fleeing steed doesn't fart as much as the last one I rode.


Date: 2011-07-26 05:03 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
Actually, panels at cons are where they need it the least. People who attend cons are a pretty select audience. Usually they're already well immersed in fandom and they've spent a lot of money to come listen to the pros speak. Hardcore fans tend to be pretty forgiving, I think. (Leaving out the fans who are genuinely bigoted/sexist/et al, as they're not going to see any speech that needs to be forgiven in the first place.)

Where they need help is with the rest of the world, where people aren't in the habit of buying their product and aren't engaged enough to go seek it out in a specialty venue. But I get the feeling that DC doesn't really care about the prospects away from the base they've already got. So if they go down in flames, it's really mostly themselves they should blame. Even the most devoted comics fan has limited resources. There's only so much blood to be gotten from the same old stone. :p

Date: 2011-07-26 05:04 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (violet1*)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
Maybe the methane emissions will help repel the horde, though. You just have to make sure the breeze is blowing the right way...

Date: 2011-07-26 05:06 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
!! I could light them! Zombies HATE fire!
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