whitesycamore: (Default)
[personal profile] whitesycamore posting in [community profile] scans_daily
So, the first issue of Red Hood and The Outlaws was... surprising.

So much so that I'm not sure what I thought of it. At all. It was very much an introductory issue, and as such it focuses mainly on who the three main characters are, and how they relate to each other. What is clear is that Roy, Jason and Kory have all had extensive changes and/or additions made to their back stories. I've posted three pages that I think illustrate this below the cut.

Some of it is good - like Roy and Jason apparently having something like a friendship...

...And some is bad. Kory now cares very little for individual humans, to the extent that she finds them completely forgettable. Seriously, she doesn't remember any of the Titans, even *Dick,* although her relationship with him is still canon. She has also seems to have lost the 'y' from the end of her name and is now called Kori. The writing and art are both extremely male gaze-y when it comes to Kory. She is depicted with a great deal of sexual agency, but the book drips with the assumption that the only people reading this are the 18-35 male bracket. I found it quite insulting.

Ok, so people who were wondering/worrying whether she might 'get with' Roy or Jason?

The obvious is somewhat subverted by the fact that she's done 'em both. Ordinarily I'd have thought that makes her a lucky lady who gets what she wants, but the rest of the book is so objectifying of her that I feel weird about it. There is potentially some interesting points to be made about her attitude to sexuality, but I think they got lost in her primary portrayal as a male fantasy-style 'nymphomaniac' - people spend an awful lot of time leering at, discussing and photographing Kory, managing to make themselves look like enormous douches in the process. Still, at least she's not being held to the usual comic book heroine standard of being sexy but not actually sexual, I guess? :/

As for the main plot (or what's foreshadowed to become the main plot), it's still very mysterious. It relates to Jason's hitherto unmentioned ties to an organisation called the All Caste. A creepy former member named Essence has come to ask for Jason's help with a string of murders connected to stolen organs, and to tell him that a female mentor of his named Ducra has been murdered. No, I have no idea what any of that means yet either.

Date: 2011-09-21 04:26 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
i kinda know how you feel... i didn't HATE this... i mean there was a lot of good stuff. the friendships between jason and Roy for one.

its a little bothersome the Cheese cakey ness of the Kori art... but at the same time... Kory has never been a shy one (but at the same time again, this is from mostly male writers....so im... confused as to how i should feel) I would feel a lot more comfortable if there was more male semmi nudity (at least that way it would feel more balanced, i mean there was roy... but why not jason too he's a pasty Gotham boy, he needs sun)

i don't really have an issue with her sexuality. i don't see her as a nymphomaniac at all here. i see her as a woman who knows what she wants and goes for it. i don't see her CRAVING sex i see her saying "You are attractive, I am attractive, we are on a tropical island. what more do you need? If you want to, fine if not, its your loss"

like you said, she keeps her sexual agency.

i guess the real issue i have is her... flippancy towards her past human relationships... however, even there, i feel like it could be her "lying to her self" Kory has had a hard life, but she knows things in life are only temporary. maybe when she split with the Titans she didn't WANT to remember them. if that makes any sense. I think in reality she does remember them and does care for them, but won't allow herself to think about things that are in the past....

i didn't dislike this enough to not read it... it seems to have more potential than faults... so i will give it another issue or two....

Date: 2011-09-21 04:40 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
am actually beginning to wonder if Kory's mind has been 'tampered' with by some outside force, and whether this will become a plot point soon. Her disconnectedness is quite disturbing,and doesn't hold true to what Lobdell said about her being a fundamentally joyous person, imo.


also as far as the objectification.. some how (and i know its gonna sound like i am making excuses for the writer, maybe its because so far this seems very unllike what i know of him) maybe its SUPPOSED to bother us... i mean Kory has never been shy about showing her body, but those weren't just "Funny remarks" they were, jarring and troublesome....

again it feels like Lobdell is trying to show us that there is something very off and wrong with the situation, not just Kory.

again maybe i am reaching, but as a writer... i tend to look beneath what is written on the page to what is trying to be conveyed.

Date: 2011-09-21 04:49 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] 18lemons
I'd like to think that Kori is aware of how attractive she is and how others perceive her and that she's put it forward to Roy early because she's aware that it could become an issue later. Like she's just being totally up front with people.

Then again I've not read this book yet and I've never read anything with Kory in before, so I'll post a more informed opinion once I've read this.

Date: 2011-09-21 05:00 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
but i see what he is saying. he's essentially having two separate thoughts, the first one is that she knows she is attractive, so she does not shy away from that.

the second one is that if she decides that it might be problematic to thier working relationship, and she see's that Roy is attracted to her, she might think, "Look, you think i'm hot, you're not too bad yourself, lets get this out of the way before we get back to work and this becomes an issue"

also yeah i think she finds them both attractive (they are both lithe sexy red heads, who would NOT be attracted to that:)

Date: 2011-09-21 05:43 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
"also yeah i think she finds them both attractive (they are both lithe sexy red heads, who would NOT be attracted to that:)"

Well, Jason's dyed his hair back to black again, which I think kinda blows. I think Morrison said it best--gingers need their heroes too. Ron Weasley isn't enough. XD

Date: 2011-09-21 05:00 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] 18lemons
That's a fair point to make and admittedly my explanation of what I was trying to put forward was very lacking, but the impression I've got from this thread is that Jason and Roy are perceiving her to be some kind of sex object.
Understandably, Roy and Jason are both attractive guys, they're comic book characters, they have perfect physiques, but they're not nearly sexually objectified as Kori is being made out to be.
I was just throwing the idea out there that Kori's approach to this might be something akin to "There, it happened, now you don't have to waste time on distractions like fantasising about me." Like I said, I've not read this book yet and I'll come back with a more informed decision once I have.

Date: 2011-09-21 05:41 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
"and the way that Roy didn't seem at all bothered by that even though he (presumably?) used to work with her."

The way the dialogue reads, it makes me think that Roy knew a lot of the Titans, but wasn't a big member of the group. He may have met Starfire in passing, or more likely heard about her.

Date: 2011-09-22 12:10 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Which would tie in with "New Teen Titans", where Roy wasn't a member, he was an occasional guest at the Tower, an old buddy that dropped by from time to time.

But they certainly did meet, and Roy even made a light hearted pass at her before going too far with his comments, and she basically threw him out the door and into a wall.

Date: 2011-09-22 12:16 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Maybe she secretly likes him more that he's a little older? It's one thing to be a super-cool hero or a mysterious bad boy, but it's another to be a hero with a mysterious bad boy past. That must get him a lot of play. :P

Date: 2011-09-22 12:24 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
She doesn't remember him then, and can barely tell him apart from Jason now, that does not bode well for him having made any sort of an impact.

Date: 2011-09-22 12:28 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Unless she's lying to them and herself, or something is affecting her memory outside of her alien senses. Memories and their pasts definitely seem like a theme that's going to be going on, especially when we get to #3:

"Red Hood, Arsenal and Starfire enter the Chamber of All to discover what the Untitled wanted – but they’ll need to leave their most cherished memories as collateral! And when you’re a reincarnated sidekick who lets your madon get the better of you, a former addict turned soldier of fortune, and an intergalactic princess who never quite recovered from a childhood spent as a prisoner of war…? Well, there aren’t a lot of cherished memories to choose from! All this as the trio draws ever closer to dealing with a threat that’s already killed the ancient caste of assassins who taught Jason Todd everything he knows about the art of killing!"

Date: 2011-09-22 07:45 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
If one of your three leads is either delusional about her own history or being influenced in some way and so completely unaware of it that that warped mindset features in her inner monologues, that's a genuinely bizarre way of re-launching an already well known character, in the middle of a soft-reboot of your shared universe where nothing can be taken as a given.

Date: 2011-09-22 07:48 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Sure, there's a bit of story to it, but it makes sense, considering that Lobdell's said in the past that the only way you can start a story of a character with a blank slate is if you start from birth.

Date: 2011-09-22 03:07 am (UTC)
werehawk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] werehawk
True. Joyous loving of sex is more like Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. He just did because he enjoyed it and so did everyone he had sex with.


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