sherkahn: (Comic Book Guy)
[personal profile] sherkahn posting in [community profile] scans_daily has the preview of #26, as revelations reveal how long ago the seeds of precaution have been prepared for the coming of the Phoenix as AvX continues.

I've been trying to find a decent "cut tag" phrase to get you to click and look on.

"They've been waiting."
"They have a plan."
But they sound too cheesy. Keep it simple

By Roth!!!, you have Da Vinci from S.H.I.E.L.D. involved.... and the are developing a contingency plan for the Phoenix?!

How long HAVE they known?
Is K'un L'un's extradimensional existence a way to hide the city from the Phoenix?
You had a plan for Galactus and the Celestial Child... what's the plan for the Phoenix?
Was the Iron Fist program designed to create an ideal host?

Date: 2012-04-13 10:49 pm (UTC)
bewareofgeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bewareofgeek
Will Bendis screw up the Iron Fist mythology as much as he did Dr. Strange?

Signs point to yes.

Date: 2012-04-14 01:31 am (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I don't think he's actually screwed up Dr. Strange in terms of plot and overall story arc. Sure, his dialogue can be terrible if the characters aren't supposed to be street vigilantes in Hell's Kitchen, and there was a good stretch of New Avengers in which Strange couldn't successfully manage a card trick. But Jericho Drumm's swan song was actually a pretty good story, and we're left with a leaner, more scholarly Dr. Strange in Defenders who has to be more creative/hardworking and call on friends rather than using the Eye of Agamotto to know exactly what to do and then solving every problem with a snap of his fingers. I think some exciting new potential has opened up for the character.

Date: 2012-04-14 03:00 am (UTC)
halloweenjack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] halloweenjack
That's a very good description, and a good way of pinpointing problems that I've had with Strange in the past; too often, he's been written as a flying blaster/energy manipulator who spouted alliterative aphorisms and occasionally pressed the I Win button.

Date: 2012-04-14 12:09 pm (UTC)
bewareofgeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bewareofgeek
I'll give you the same challenge I've given others:

Name 3 stories, pre-Bendis, where Strange won without working for it. Bonus points if it's in his own title.

I'll agree with you about the flying blaster bit, but that's a problem with the writer, not the character, IMO.

Date: 2012-04-15 01:27 am (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
His own title was usually written to make things challenging even with lesser opposition, but I recall Strange defeating Nightmare pretty handily in Dr. Strange #13, ditto by merely opening the Eye of Agamotto at the beginning of Dr. Strange #50, and easily making short work of Mordo's lieutenants in Dr. Strange #56 by basically letting his house eat them.

Also sticking out in my memory are (1) the old issue of Defenders where as the Red Rajah Strange took out Solarr, the Rhino, and the male half of his own team as if they were toddlers, (2) an issue of Namor where the titular character, Iron Fist, and possibly Misty Night and Colleen Wing were fleeing from some ├╝ber-powerful sentient plant monsters and Strange disintegrated them effortlessly, and (3) Fantastic Four #243, in which Strange waved his hands and knocked Galactus into a coma with a single spell.

Date: 2012-04-15 10:54 am (UTC)
bewareofgeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bewareofgeek
Congratulations. You are actually the first person to ever actually answer the challenge. Unfortunately, I don't actually own most of those stories, so I can't give you a proper rebuttal.

But for the one I do own:

Mordo's minions were taken out pretty easily, true, but it wasn't a matter of "Strange waves his hand and they lose". And that's what he's often accused of. Most of the examples you give don't seem to fall under that label as well, except maybe for the FF take.

And if the story is the one I'm thinking of, it wasn't as simple as that. Strange basically gave the big G a Penance stare, and that's why Galactus went comatose. It wasn't "By the Lights of Great Paloma, put this being into a coma".

Still, you have some good examples there. But I think you'll agree, these are the exception, not the rule. And Strange has been around for 50 years...

Date: 2012-04-15 08:45 pm (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
And if the story is the one I'm thinking of, it wasn't as simple as that. Strange basically gave the big G a Penance stare, and that's why Galactus went comatose. It wasn't "By the Lights of Great Paloma, put this being into a coma".

And the fact that Strange didn't need an incantation and just knew exactlly how to make Galactus fall down and curl up with a gesture invalidates the example how?

In a lot of cases, stories after the mid-80s or so didn't have Dr. Strange live up to his potential, but that meant a lot of contrived situations to preserve drama, or Bendis-like nerfings where he suddenly couldn't do much if he was in the company of allies, since you can't have a huge extradimensional invasion every month. Someone who can fight Dormammu or Mephisto one-on-one really shouldn't have to worry when facing down minor occultists or Spider-Man villains, y'know? I think all but a few writers these days have problems coming up with interesting stories about a character who can basically do anything he can imagine - it's a problem that has also plagued the Dr. Fate and Spectre characters over at DC.

The current situation brings Strange back down to a point where he's still one of the most powerful Marvel heroes, but no longer virtually omnipotent and omniscient. And so far IMHO Matt Fraction has been getting the character notes exactly right while preserving a sense of mystery and wonder. I much prefer that to having Strange make cameo appearances in crowd scenes during each summer's big crossover mess because no one can think of anything else to do with him.

Date: 2012-04-14 12:07 pm (UTC)
bewareofgeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bewareofgeek
I disagree. He pretty much transformed a rich mythology based on DECADES of stories into a poorly written mess.

Tying Strange's power level to his title as Sorcerer Supreme was one thing, and a bit ridiculous. But making the Eye part of it, when he had it for _decades_ before becoming S.S.?

(Leaving aside the fact that there are TWO amulets and the Orb as well)

Turning Agamotto evil and disbanding the Vishanti just to "depower" Stephen?

And let's not even get into the whole "The Eye cannot be simply taken" bit, since that's _precisely_ how Drumm got it. Strange didn't give it to him, it traveled to him via the power of Agamotto. The same being who later tried to take it.

And Bendis WROTE that story.

A while back, I postulated that Bendis based his ideas on Marvel Magic on D&D. Strange is a low-level magic-user, who needs artifacts to get anything done.

That's not the Strange I grew up reading. Never was. Even in his VERY FIRST APPEARANCE, when he had neither the Eye nor the title, he was more competent than Bendis' take.

As for Densders... meh.

Date: 2012-04-15 01:46 am (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
Tying Strange's power level to his title as Sorcerer Supreme was one thing, and a bit ridiculous. But making the Eye part of it, when he had it for _decades_ before becoming S.S.?

For the first part it was sort of already established, as Strange was given the Ancient One's power in addition to his own upon the latter's death. Presumably when he stepped down he lost that benefit, and it was given to Jericho Drumm upon being chosen by the Eye (which would explain how he went from charming snakes and fire-walking to fighting dimension lords overnight). The Ancient One gave Strange the Eye after his first victory over Dormammu and went into semi-retirement after that, so Strange was essentially acting as Sorcerer Supreme for years (ten in real time, maybe two or three in comics time?) even though he didn't technically have the title yet.

I'm not thrilled by the cosmic being representing truth and knowledge making an unexplained heel turn, but must concede that when he pointed out in-story that the doings of beings like the Vishanti are far beyond human comprehension, he probably had a point. And that story demonstrated that the Eye's power and functioning was now separate from Agamotto himself, hence his attempts to get it back and recover some of his former glory after being diminished.

Date: 2012-04-15 12:44 pm (UTC)
bewareofgeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bewareofgeek
Sort of, but not really. I can think of three times (Strange Tales vs, the Order, and the Quinn/Ellis era) that Strange either lost the eye, or stopped using it. And in all three cases, he didn't lose THAT much power.

As for Jericho... he never even USED the Eye in his mini, even when it would have made sense to do so. It was that silly-looking staff with the shrunken heads. And bad writing, but I've ranted about that elsewhere.

Date: 2012-04-14 01:36 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Given Bendis' man-crush on Luke Cage, he probably knows a lot about Iron Fish's background just by proxy (or whatever). Bendis might just get Iron Fist mythology right. *Might*

Date: 2012-04-14 02:56 am (UTC)
pyrotwilight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pyrotwilight
Iron Fish. With a tail like a thing of iron.

Date: 2012-04-15 04:41 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Iron Fish. How did I miss that? *sigh*

Date: 2012-04-15 01:35 pm (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos


scans_daily: (Default)
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