thespis: ([wondy] diana!)
[personal profile] thespis posting in [community profile] scans_daily
From Gail Simone's The Circle:

I just love this scene so much. I've not read a lot of Gail Simone's Wondy - much as I like her as a writer, I just haven't been able to get past the idiocy of the Heinboot - but things like this make me think I should.

I posted these scans on Tumblr the other day and Gail had some really interesting things to say about the way she approached the story:

I think if you look at these pages, it presents the Diana birth myth in a way that is actually about maternity, with all its messy, bloody meaning, despite the fact that Diana didn’t come out of Hippolyta’s birth canal. Being a mom is scary and momentous, and there is danger and joy and risk and terror and pain and a rush of emotion that is almost palpable, no matter how the process goes.

I think the talk of blood, and the pages being colored like this, was a subtle but massive change to the Diana myth, and made it infinitely more maternal and even a little scary. I know some people at DC were disturbed (but supportive).

It’s the one thing I wish they’d kept. The original story is great, but was very clearly (I felt) hampered by what they could get away with, content wise. This made it female and frightening without throwing the actual history in the dustbin.

I look at those pages, Hippolyta in the sand, her blood all over the baby in the red glow of the Hunter’s moon, and I really think that that should be the birth image of Diana forever. It’s moving and a little disconcerting, and a lot less sanitized.

I wish they'd taken more of this approach with the New 52 Wondy. I know The Circle isn't a reboot per se, but one thing it demonstrates really well is that it is possible add new depth and dimensions to Wonder Woman's origins without disregarding the long-established canon.

Date: 2012-06-08 03:05 am (UTC)
darth_cloudo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] darth_cloudo
I'm getting the broken image sign of doom. :0 I think that imgur doesn't work with dreamwidth for some reason.

Date: 2012-06-08 01:03 pm (UTC)
darth_cloudo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] darth_cloudo
It works now. :D
And these scans are very cool. How is the rest of the book? Is it worth picking up?

Date: 2012-06-08 03:40 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
-I just love this scene so much. I've not read a lot of Gail Simone's Wondy - much as I like her as a writer, I just haven't been able to get past the idiocy of the Heinboot - but things like this make me think I should.-

Well, there's a writer between the two, and Gail does a very good classic Wondy.

I don't like the stuff that came before either, but IMO her Wonder Woman run is both some of the best Gail Simone and some of the best Wonder Woman.

Date: 2012-06-08 05:24 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
I will mentioned I skipped the previous stories *entirely* ^^

The Circle is a perfectly fine starting point.

Date: 2012-06-09 03:19 pm (UTC)
sailorlibra: (awkward)
From: [personal profile] sailorlibra
You know, I have mixed feelings about Gail's Wondy run... The beginning of it (which includes The Circle) is very good, but it really starts falling apart after Ends of the Earth. It's never terrible, but it's not quality stuff the way the beginning was. I can only really recommend reading Wonder Woman #14-17 (The Circle), #18-19 (a two-shot dealing with aliens and green lanterns), and #24-25 (a two-shot about a potential Wonder Woman movie that is pretty adorable).

Date: 2012-06-08 09:42 am (UTC)
korvar: (Default)
From: [personal profile] korvar

Date: 2012-06-08 03:28 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Personally I'd say the story was very mediocre, but it was also plagued with delays, and it killed the momentum that Rucka and Infinite Crisis had finally gotten Wonder Woman, and they tried to repair that lost momentum with Amazon's Attack.

I mean, who knows where'd we be if they'd given it to Gail from the start?

Date: 2012-06-08 04:09 am (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
The Circle was one of the best WW stories I've ever read. I put it up there with The Contest, The Hiketeia, League of One, and Diana's defeat of Medusa. Alkyone was a great villain as well and much more interesting than Gail's later attempt at an arch-nemesis for Wondy in Genocide. I don't mind the Heinboot as much as some people do. If you read in in trade without all the original delays its not a bad story, I liked the idea of Donna temporarily being Wonder Woman and I liked some of the redesigns the Dodsons gave Diana's rogues gallery (even if they were never used after that).

This makes me wish all the more they kept the Diana being born from clay and empowered by all the Gods origin. It makes much more of an impact when you read it like this, to see what she meant to the Amazons (who until then could not have children) and it showed the love the Gods for Diana and the Amazons. Instead Azzarello gives an origin where Hippolyta was impregnated by Zeus (just like so many others) and is a mere demi-god on par with Hercules and Perseus. It just doesn't have that same iconic feeling.

Date: 2012-06-08 01:11 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
It's too bad that Simone and her run never lived up to the promise of this story, frankly. I liked Rise of the Olympian for what it was, but Genocide and other aspects of her run seemed really bogged down by Simone's inability to make interesting new villainous characters, which is what the Wonder Woman of the Post-IC era genuinely needed, given Circe had been used to death in the space of fifteen issues, Cheetah was largely too tied up in Simone's own Secret Society nonsense, and by and large, there aren't many other villains that people like.

But this story was interesting, and whilst I love Azzarello's run, I though Simone's added wrinkle to the classic version of the origin was interesting enough, although it continued to basically bog down the Amazons with unnecessary dark secrets; That seems to be a trend of Simone's, though, given her retconning of the Killing Joke and the nature of James Jr's character.

So yeah, this story was solid, but having read a lot of the rest, I don't see why the people disliking Azzarello's run were clamouring to have Simone back, given that I felt her take on Diana was fairly solid, but bland and not really capable of moving forward like say, Rucka's take.

Date: 2012-06-08 02:36 pm (UTC)
majingojira: (Godzilla Burnination)
From: [personal profile] majingojira
I actually like the concept off Genocide a lot.

I agree it wasn't the best execution, but it reminded me a lot of the version of Godzilla from "Godzilla, Mothra, King Ghidorah: Giant Monster All Out Attack" which is never a bad thing in my book.

Date: 2012-06-08 02:47 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
The concept's fine. The concept's solid. It's probably the most Anti-Wonder Woman character ever, moreso than Devastation or anyone else. The idea of a contrast to the clay of Diana by using soils from the sites of terrible events around the world is fantastic. I just thought the visual was positively terrible, really, and the character was only just a little more compelling than say, Doomsday, to me.

Date: 2012-06-08 05:36 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
Doomsday is a good comparison. The problem was that while Doomsday was originally written as a one-off threat to kill Supes (though they overused him to death in later years) Gail seemed to want to create a lasting foe for Diana in Genocide and it was a total failure. Genocide had less personality than Bizarro and it/her overall design was just downright ugly (and not ugly as in unpleasant to look at, ugly as an overall comic aesthetic, you could easily have made a gross looking un-Wonder Woman that didn't look like a green reject from the Black Lagoon).

Date: 2012-06-08 05:46 pm (UTC)
salinea: (Default)
From: [personal profile] salinea
also i really don't want to a have a villain named "Genocide" in my funny books. It makes me wince everytime I see it.

Date: 2012-06-08 07:36 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
It was a bit much. I think Holocaust with the X-Men franchise was similarly wince-worthy, so I wasn't surprised they renamed that guy the second he came over from the AoA.

Date: 2012-06-08 07:41 pm (UTC)
salinea: (Default)
From: [personal profile] salinea
Yup. And the 616 version they call Genocide. Which, again.

Date: 2012-06-08 08:07 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Seriously? *facepalm*

Date: 2012-06-08 08:10 pm (UTC)
salinea: Storm facepalming (oy)
From: [personal profile] salinea
Recently, in Uncanny X-Force.

Date: 2012-06-08 09:25 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Huh. That's surprising, because I enjoyed the first trade of the series. I expected better of Remender, somehow.

Date: 2012-06-09 05:26 am (UTC)
halloweenjack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] halloweenjack
When City of Heroes brought out the City of Villains part of it, the first villain I created was the opposite number for my Irish superheroine, Lady Shillelagh, named Tiocfaidh ár lá, an ex-IRA bomber. I ended up deleting her because I wondered what players from the British Isles would think of that--it might be like someone making a villain named Mr. 9/11.

Date: 2012-06-09 01:54 pm (UTC)
salinea: (Default)
From: [personal profile] salinea
Wise choice.

Date: 2012-06-09 01:27 pm (UTC)
majingojira: (Godzilla Burnination)
From: [personal profile] majingojira
I think Destroyah is the best version of that "Type" of character so far concieved.

But I have my biases ;)

Date: 2012-06-09 02:22 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Not disagreeing. I fucking love Godzilla. Love it, especially the Showa/Heisei incarnations, and well.. Yeah. Even though Destroyah doesn't quite operate in the same manner as say, a Doomsday or a Genocide, I think that the idea that he's kind-of a product of Doctor Serizawa's sacrifice in trying to get rid of the first Godzilla is incredibly powerful, and it's really well done that it kind-of echoes the first Godzilla film, in which Godzilla gets taken down by (basically) an incarnation of the Oxygen Destroyer.

But yeah. I'm with you there, but then I think the Godzilla series has a number of great designs beyond the big man himself anyway.

Date: 2012-06-08 03:45 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
To be fair to Azzarello, it does seem he was given free reign by the EIC's to basically do whatever he wanted, just like Morrison with Superman; To be honest, I'm surprised that more people don't kick up a fuss about the rather drastic changes made to Clark.

As it is, the 'established canon' means jack shit when it comes to the New52. We can see that pretty clearly, now, which is why I have to refrain from laughing at times when I see fans trying to figure out what fits anymore. Nothing does. That's why I don't mind and actively enjoy Azzarello's take, at least to a degree. To me, he's made the most of a total clusterfuck, and it's not like he's the only one ignoring the 'established canon'. So are bits of Batman, Teen Titans, and so on. To me, as good as it is, Perez's story no longer applies - and wouldn't have done even before Azzarello petitioned Didio to do the book.

Date: 2012-06-08 05:41 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
"To be honest, I'm surprised that more people don't kick up a fuss about the rather drastic changes made to Clark."

Oh, I agree. People (and I'm one of them) can complain about what's been done to Starfire and Amanda Waller and Harley Quin but no character has suffered more than Superman. They've just made him Peter Parker Mark 2, seperated him (purposely) from his supporting cast particularly Lois and made him even more boring than he was during Grounded.

"...have to refrain from laughing at times when I see fans trying to figure out what fits anymore. Nothing does."
What about The Killing Joke? You know, the story that even its author declared non-canon? By all accounts Gail was Editorially mandated to make it part of Babs's backstory and to keep referencing it.

Date: 2012-06-08 07:33 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
The Killing Joke is pretty much one of the only stories referenced as of late, and maybe Knightfall (Green Lantern is an exception because OF COURSE Johns is going to keep all his own stuff in play), but again, like I say, the word clusterfuck very much springs to mind. They really don't know what fits.

And personally, I don't entirely buy that it was just DC behind keeping TKJ in, somehow. To me, I think she thought she could probably do a better 'recovery' story than the one that led to her becoming Oracle, or thought that it probably offered up more story opportunities. But then, I don't like Simone and I'm not as inclined to believe her, like some, especially when her position as the face of an anti-fridging movement is utterly tarnished when she congratulates Bendis on killing off the Wasp.

Date: 2012-06-09 08:03 am (UTC)
lascoden: Anarky (Default)
From: [personal profile] lascoden
But then, I don't like Simone and I'm not as inclined to believe her, like some, especially when her position as the face of an anti-fridging movement is utterly tarnished when she congratulates Bendis on killing off the Wasp.

Oh man, I just read about that yesterday, and I'm still mad. It's seriously messed up, especially when she tried to explain it. But yeah, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you with the WW, Simone, and TKJ stuff, so you're not alone there. It's a brand new universe, really, and some are taking more liberties with that then others.

Date: 2012-06-08 02:17 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
I've always regretted not buying this book in English... The Italian version has got several horrible editing messes that really spoil the flow of the narrative. If only I had known before I bought the book >_>

Date: 2012-06-08 03:58 pm (UTC)
ext_551527: (Default)
From: [identity profile]
Wow, these pages are really visceral...I really like it.

Date: 2012-06-08 05:32 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
That's really the only word for it, isn't it? Perfect for a birth scene.

Date: 2012-06-08 11:48 pm (UTC)
kiev4am: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kiev4am
I've never seen this before, but I really love it. I find it really moving, especially the second panel and the last. I think it's because, despite the otherworldly setting and godly mythology, there's something universal about it - 'wonder' is pretty much the emotion a lot of people feel at the moment of childbirth, however it happens. But it's not fuzzy or idealised, either. 'Visceral' is the perfect word for it.


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