Date: 2012-09-26 09:55 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
I still think the best take on this event was Morrison's "Joe Chill in Hell," but I thought this was pretty well done--kinda reminded me of Batman Begins while taking out the getting caught/courtroom stuff.

Date: 2012-09-26 09:58 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
The difficulty with 'Joe Chill in Hell' was that we couldn't tell if it was real or if it was a hallucination Batman was having; To me, there was always something slightly off about a Batman who basically tormented the killer of his parents until he kills himself, though.

Date: 2012-09-26 11:19 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
I always figured it was, and the hallucinations were usually either him talking to himself (the one that comes to mind was when Dr. Hurt "says" that Batman tried to isolate his emotions after Jason's death, and then he agrees in another panel, sitting next to a line of Robin display cases, saying that he didn't want to open his heart to anyone else, or they might die too, which causes him to ask, "When did I die?") or when he's seeing his own funeral as a child with Bat-Mite trying to cheer him up. If you need a reason why it's different now, you could say that Infinite Crisis did it.

Date: 2012-09-27 12:13 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] omgwtflolbbqbye
The nit-picker in me feels like Pre-Batman Bruce Wayne meeting Chill is conceptually different enough to Post-Batman Bruce Wayne/Batman meeting him that they aren't entirely comparable stories.That logic probably only makes sense to me though.

Overall my favorite "Bruce/Batman meets Joe Chill" story is still Ty Templeton's Fear Itself from the DCAU comics.
Edited Date: 2012-09-27 12:16 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-09-27 12:21 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
What I liked about Morrison's take was that he made Chill more than just a worthless hood or something one-note. The bit that I remember that I really liked there is that while talking about what happened, he says that he should have just killed Bruce right there--no witnesses--but "he reminded me of my son. The one I lost." That made it feel like he was his own, unique character that isn't there to just 86 the Waynes.

Date: 2012-09-27 01:11 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] omgwtflolbbqbye
I think I strongly preferred the more mysterious and foggy portrayals of Joe Chill, where he becomes a mythic figure in Bruce's mind that is exaggerated through time and Bruce's own traumatic reconciliation and emotional distortions.

While it means that we don't actually get to see the actual Joe Chill as a character, the one that exists in Bruce's mind and memories gets to become just as vivid of an entity in the mythology.

And in that regard I guess I like it better when if Bruce does eventually meet him in person, that he turns out to be a nobody criminal, cowardly and superstitious, cause I'm just a sucker for irony.

Date: 2012-09-27 01:17 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
The thing is, at the end of Chill in Hell, he was still a nobody criminal--a mid-list hustler at best, so it still has a bit of irony.

Date: 2012-09-27 01:57 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] omgwtflolbbqbye
I know, but for me I think even that wasn't as ironically obscure/impotent of a fate for him.

Sort of tangential I also really the DCAU version for the reveal that the Wayne Murder inadvertently traumatized him, in a parallel to what it did to Bruce.

Date: 2012-09-27 05:22 pm (UTC)
jcbaggee: Jesus (Default)
From: [personal profile] jcbaggee
Yeah, came here to say the best Joe Chill story is the DCAU one.

Date: 2012-09-27 01:28 am (UTC)
an_idol_mind: (Default)
From: [personal profile] an_idol_mind
I'm personally a big fan of the Golden Age confrontation with Joe Chill (which was loosely adapted in an episode of The Brave and the Bold).

Date: 2012-09-27 01:51 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] omgwtflolbbqbye
I like that version too, although I could do without the Lew Moxon arranged hit/ then heart attack/ amnesia add-on.

I think the only JC origin/confrontation I outright dislike is the one where he's Joker ala the 1989 Batman movie.

Date: 2012-09-26 09:58 pm (UTC)
superfangirl1: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superfangirl1
Did that clown wall painting transform into the joker? Nice story with Bruce learning that his parents death wasn't anything else but a unfortunate incident and not a Conspiracy.

Date: 2012-09-26 10:18 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
Nice story with Bruce learning that his parents death wasn't anything else but a unfortunate incident and not a Conspiracy.

but didn't court of Owls say it WAS?

Date: 2012-09-26 11:20 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
No, they pretty explicitly said it wasn't, as I remember. Bruce at one time thought they might have had something to do with it, but he came to a complete dead on them even existing when he was investigating as a kid.

Date: 2012-09-26 09:59 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
I like that he mentions the Court of Owls. It could be seen as a bit of a hacky attempt to tie things into Snyder's writing, but I like that it communicates that up until recently the Court was just thought of as a fairy tale.
And I like the art. Is Suayan's stuff always like this, or is this mostly the coloring?

Also, the fact that AngryYoungMan!Bruce considers murdering Joe Chill with a hilarious olde timey pistol is amazing.

Date: 2012-09-26 10:18 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
well in Snyder's story, Bruce DID think it was the court of Owls. he explained to Dick later that he didn't beleive it. (you know, until they attacked)

Date: 2012-09-26 10:24 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
I don't think Bruce wanted it to be a conspiracy, he just wanted it to (somehow) be okay. And now he knows it never will be.

Date: 2012-09-27 05:24 pm (UTC)
jcbaggee: Jesus (Default)
From: [personal profile] jcbaggee
It was more he wanted it to have meaning. He waned to know that his dad died for something important, for helping the people of Gotham, or a conspiracy from the Court of Owls because they feared the Waynes and what they meant for Gotham.

Instead it was a random, meaningless crime that happened through sheer, dumb luck. A random act of senseless violence that only happened because his mom wore her pearls that night. Chill didn't even know who they were.

It's honestly not a BAD revamp of the origin, and an interestingly fresh take on the Joe Chill aspect of Batman's origin, but his origin has been retold and redone so many times that I just can't find myself to care anymore.

Date: 2012-09-26 10:53 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] omgwtflolbbqbye
I really like this; it's actually quite similar to the idealized Bat-fanon I've had in my head for a while.

Also I thought Gregg Hurwitz was the guy who created Arrested Development which made me do a double take. Google-fu reveals to my disappointment that's another Hurwitz.
Edited Date: 2012-09-26 11:00 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-09-26 11:58 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Okay, this I like.. that it was a random meaningless theft by a nonentity is pretty damned cool.

Though alas the "I didn't mean to" is forever linked, to me, to another Bat villain

Date: 2012-09-27 01:31 am (UTC)
blackruzsa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blackruzsa
This was always my canon.
Making Joe Chill other than a common thug made it meaningless and unrealistic, and it gave Bruce's story less depth, to have his parents killed by some crazy big plot.

No.

It was just a man who needed money, whose gun went off because he was caught off guard. It is a tragedy that happens to more people than are remembered, and this is what connects Bruce Wayne to the rest of the world.

Date: 2012-09-27 02:35 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
had to go off twice though. To me Chill should be at least a "professional" criminal.

Date: 2012-09-27 07:35 am (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
Chill: Gimme those pearls! *blam*
Thomas: Wha... you shot my wife, you bastard!
Chill: Oh crap! I didn't mean to, I'll just call an ambulance! *blam*
Bruce: You just shot both my parents!
Chill: That's it I'm out of here, last time I steal a gun from a WalMart dumpster...

Date: 2012-09-27 01:26 pm (UTC)
leoboiko: manga-style picture of a female-identified person with long hair, face not drawn, putting on a Japanese fox-spirit max (Default)
From: [personal profile] leoboiko
And, as that panel not-so-subtly hints, it ties right into the Batman/Joker dynamic. Joker stands for meaningless and it’s what Batman fights against.

Date: 2012-09-27 02:34 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
to me it shouldn't be a mob hit, but the guy should be more than a pathetic drunk.

Date: 2012-09-27 02:42 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
Making Joe Chill a pathetic drunk would put Bruce's parents' deaths in an even more tragic light. Everything they did for Gotham, all of their accomplishments, all of their wealth and influence...and some random punk with a gun put an end to all it.

It's pretty sobering to realize that this sort of thing could happen to anyone regardless of education, family, status, etc.

Date: 2012-09-27 03:04 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
I prefer smaller tragedy that leads to a massive response.

Date: 2012-09-27 09:41 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
What's a smaller tragedy than a punk with a gun?

Date: 2012-09-27 02:37 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
Making Bruce's parents the victims of a meaningless crime has more impact than making them targets of a conspiracy. Bruce's response to his One Bad Day -- fighting against the random senseless cruelty in life rather than embracing it -- makes him seem like that much more of a hero.

I really like the DCAU based comic that shows Joe Chill spending the rest of his life terrified of Bruce Wayne after he found out Bruce was the kid he orphaned in that alley. With Bruce completely oblivious since he never discovered Joe's identity in this continuity.

Date: 2012-09-27 01:48 pm (UTC)
bradygirl_12: (batman--robin (a bat & his little bird))
From: [personal profile] bradygirl_12
I've always preferred the random element of the Wayne shooting over a big conspiracy. I like that Bruce, with all his money and power, is reduced to railing against the randomness of the universe like the rest of us, asking why and not getting any answer. The great tragedy of the Waynes' deaths is that it wasn't planned or malevolent, just a shaky gunman wanting Martha's pearls so that he could fence them for the money (and other bottle). The sheer inanity of the whole thing fuels Batman's rage.

It might be why Dick seems able to handle his parents' deaths better. In the back of his mind, an accident like that could always happen, and when he finds out it was murder, he gets closure fairly quickly over Zucco. It's also his personality over Bruce's, too, that they processed their parents' murders differently.

Date: 2012-09-27 03:58 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
In the Young Justice series, Bruce took in Dick and trained him as Robin specifically to give him closure. All so that he would never become Batman.

Date: 2012-09-27 04:32 pm (UTC)
bradygirl_12: (batman--robin (a bat & his little bird))
From: [personal profile] bradygirl_12
I like that connection between them and Bruce understanding what Dick is feeling. It's one of the best things about their relationship and is sad that the current Elseworld treats Dick's time as Robin as an internship instead of the intense, complex partnership with Bruce that it is.

Date: 2012-09-27 09:48 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
That's been Bruce's stated motivation for his Robin's (at least 1 and 2) many times, my favourite (aside from the YJ one) being this one

Date: 2012-09-27 05:35 am (UTC)
junipepper: (Default)
From: [personal profile] junipepper
Those clown panels are really, really creepy...

Date: 2012-09-27 07:36 am (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
Y'know Joe, you could have sold the gun and that could probably have made as much as the pearls, if slightly less.

Date: 2012-09-27 05:25 pm (UTC)
jcbaggee: Jesus (Default)
From: [personal profile] jcbaggee
Yeah, but then what if he has to mug someone again?! :P

Date: 2012-09-27 08:29 am (UTC)
eyz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] eyz
So we're back to "just a mugging gone wrong" thing AND Joe Chill lives again?

Hey kids! Comics!
...like a wheel...wheel..spinning...spinning..

Date: 2012-09-27 10:45 am (UTC)
nate_abril96: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nate_abril96
This might be my favorite version of Bruce's parents death. It really creates a real sense of tragedy and irony. It makes Bruce's parents death more real, and actually makes you feel sorry for Joe Chill who was only just a desperate man. Although, if I do have to nit-pick, I wish Joe Chill wouldn't out right defend himself. I think I would have preferred it if he would have hoped Bruce would have shot him, as he felt guilty over Bruce's parents deaths. Also, I kind of like how after Bruce meets his parents' killer, it ties into one of his motivations for becoming Batman, and Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns: "He flinched when he pulled the trigger. He was sick and guilty over what he did. All He wanted was money. I was naive enough to think Him the lowest sort of man."

Date: 2012-09-27 09:53 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Morrison's "Joe Chill in Hell" had Joe defend himself as a result of "class warfare" and that he thinks he should have killed Bruce as well. Meaning Joe Chill really doesn't think he did anything wrong and doesn't feel guilty. So he wasn't "sick and guilty."

The closest thing to that is DAREDEVIL: YELLOW, where Slade tells Matt Murdock he doesn't regret killing Battlin' Jack Murdock. Jack was supposed to throw a fight, didn't, and so he "had" to die. Therefore, Slade doesn't think he did anything wrong accoding to his "code" as a criminal.

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