espanolbot: (Default)
[personal profile] espanolbot posting in [community profile] scans_daily
The story begins with someone having a nightmare about a mugging doing south, in which two parents are shot over a wallet and a pearl necklace, leaving a child orphaned... and the one having the nightmare is Joe Chill.

Yeah, ever since that night he's been trying to keep his head down despite getting "that awful kind of celebrity" for killing the Waynes, but trying to fool himself into thinking that he's stil "the Iceman" in dealing with it. The truth is that the fear of being caught has been eating him alive for years not.

Cut to an interview on TV, it turns out that a cop has gotten some celebrity status of his own lately, after charging into a building after seeing an injured Batman get thrown out of it. Batman warned him that Killer Croc was inside (yikes, Waylon's following my posts around a lot lately, hasn't he?) and that he should wait for backup. But figuring that waiting for backup will give Croc a chance to escape he runs in anyways...

Joe admits to himself that that's been happening to him a lot lately, and that it's bad enough that Bruce haunts his dreams, but he's starting to see him everywhere when he's awake too. He calls Bruce a reminder of his deepest regret, that he committed a double murder over a $200 necklace and that he left a witness alive.

He tells himself that he didn't have the guts to kill a child, and now it's too late, he's an untouchable millionaire and it's only a matter of time before he remembers him and fingers him tot he cops.

Joe continues watching the report when he gets back from Gotham's version of Subway,

Batman later comes to the detective's apartment, and explains that Croc escaped from the prison ward he was sent too after the engine-block incident. He offers to move the detective somewhere else for his protection, reasoning that Croc is a simple man and revenge would be at the front of his mind. Especially since detective has been on TV talking about the arrest. The detective tells Batman that people in the GCPD aren't cowards, and that he can take care of himself, especially since Batman still has a broken rib from the fight with Croc last week.

Batman apologises, which confuses the detective, and leaves. Joe on the other hand is starting to panic. He buys an untracable gun from a backalley arms dealer, who jokes to him about how Joe has a job to do or something. Joe flips his lid at the guy, telling him to shut up or he'll shoot him in the knees, which causes the gun seller to just burst out laughing and send him on his way, thinking that Joe is just some old loser.

Joe looks up the detective in the phonebook (yes, he was listed. There's brave and then there's stupid...) and starts justifying to himself why he had to blow up on the guy, saying that he can't show fear or it'll all start tumbling out. He says how he used to think that he should just go and kill Wayne, and that would stop the dreams, which are getting worse as time goes on.

But he couldn't bring himself to do it when Bruce was young, and shortly after the Wayne murders he was convicted for eleven years for some completely different charges, so he didn't have the chance then either.

Batman, thinking that Croc sent him to kill the detective, demands to know where the supervillain is, while Joe is just mystified as to why Batman's there. Panicking, he chucks a clock at him, which against all the odds manages to hit him in the broken ribs. Joe, realising that Batman is favouring his right side, starts to repeatedly bash Batman in the busted ribs.

Due to the detective's distraction, the bullet ends up hitting Batman in the ribs... again, causing him to drop to the floor in agony. Joe then tries to shoot the detective, as he's the most dangerous man in the room now as he's also got a gun, but Batman grabs onto his legs and throws him off balance. Joe grabs blindly at Batman as the wrestle on the floor, tearing his mask in the process.

And so, DCAU Joe Chill dies. Bruce lands next to him, and says with blamefulment and grief "Why was he afraid to take my hand...?".

The End.

Date: 2012-10-03 09:08 am (UTC)
eyz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] eyz
This seems like an awfully complicated to have Batman "kill" Joe Chill, without the grief from Bruce actually killing him (thus the "Why was he afraid to take my hand...?")

Date: 2012-10-03 12:27 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I don't think it's the intention of having Batman 'kill' Chill. Batman doesn't kill him. Chill's own psychosis and his guilt over killing the Waynes effectively did the job years before, and his own paranoia finishes him off here. After all, who could possibly use one button to solve a decades-old murder? The detective is/was surely just talking about it as that one last case that he wished he could've solved. Chill decides, in his paranoia, that it could lead to him. And he ends up killing himself over it. Batman does everything in his power to save him.

Compare and contrast with Morrison's take, where Batman actively torments him to death, effectively. Batman's not to blame here.

Date: 2012-10-03 02:03 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
No, that's what eyz is talking about, the cliche where the hero and villain have a showdown and the villain ends up falling off a cliff or something through absolutely no fault of the hero. It allows us to satisfy our urge for vengeance by watching the villain die, while leaving the hero's hands clean, and it's sort of a narrative cop-out, having your cake and eating it too.

It sort of works here in that it's really Chill's story, and Batman's a side character with no idea what's going on. It sort of fails in that Chill's more of a compulsion than a character. We know he wants to quit being so scared all the time, but we don't really get an idea of what he'd be doing with his life if he wasn't.

Date: 2012-10-03 02:17 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I think it's perfectly obvious that Chill is at least attempting to lead an ordinary life; Granted, I haven't seen the issue beyond these scans, but it's clear he at least seems happy in his home life - it's just that one major psychological tic that he has which brings him down.

I also don't think this is, say, a Disney Villain Death. This isn't like say, Hunchback of Notre Dame, where Frollo kills himself via his own stupidity and malicious sword-swinging. There's a hell of a lot more tragedy going on here because the BTAS Batman was hardly ever the 'MY PARENTSS ARE DEEEEEADDDD!!' version of the character, and instead seemed determined never to see it happen again. He isn't actively cast into confrontation with Joe the same way a Disney hero is a Disney villain, and Joe isn't as actively malicious as many a Disney foe. There's also the matter of intent; In say, a Disney film (sorry for continually referencing those, but when it comes to cop out deaths that leave the hero's hands free of blood, Disney takes the crown), the villain is actively targeting the hero - Again, HoND comes to mind, as does Beauty and the Beast; Here, it's Joe's own psychosis that basically leads him to his death.

Batman's hands wouldn't have even been dirty if he hadn't tried to save Joe, and I frankly don't get any satisfaction from seeing Joe die.

Date: 2012-10-03 02:34 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
See, Batman '89 always confuses me because you could argue that Batman does it with the intent to kill him, but at the same time, why isn't the Joker's helicopter crew bright enough to realise that 'fuck, the boss just got about two tons heavier'?

Date: 2012-10-03 02:46 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
The Joker is committing suicide. He starts out wanting to be a homicidal artist, and sets up incredibly complex plots involving mix'n'match poison components in multiple cosmetic products. The thing is, Gothamites are all incredibly stupid and no one appreciates his art. By the end of the movie he's sold out and is just promising people free money if they'll show up and let him kill them, they're that dumb. Think about it, he has Batman at his mercy, dangling from a ledge, and he just gives up. If even his own goons can't realize he's about to die, what's the point in telling them?

Date: 2012-10-03 02:40 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Eh? Joe's paranoia stems from the fact that he killed a couple in front of their son. He dies because he's trying to kill both Batman and a cop. Granted, he's trying to kill Batman incidentally, he's only really targeting the cop.

(Frollo likewise dies because of his own repressed sexuality, religious guilt, racism, etc. His own demons are what led him up on that rooftop to begin with)

Of course Batman's hands are clean, that is the point, that the hero's hands are always clean and instead it is Fate, or Karma, or Self-Inflicted Actions or whatever striking the villain down.

My point is that if this story is the tragedy of Joe Chill, we should at some point find ourselves wishing that the tragedy could be averted. That Joe Chill could somehow overcome his hamartia and find a happy ending. Living an ordinary life after killing a couple and orphaning their kid isn't a happy ending. It's just mildly sociopathic.

Date: 2012-10-03 02:50 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Fair enough. I disagree, and think that this is hardly a story put together,as eyz suggests, to let Batman 'kill' Joe Chill. Again, Batman tries to save him. That alone sets it apart from other examples. That Batman doesn't know who the fuck the guy is means that it's even further apart from other examples. Batman's hands are clean, yes, but you're going with the most bizarre method of trying to assign blame to Batman by even suggesting this is a story where Batman 'kills' Joe Chill.

Date: 2012-10-03 02:59 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
I'm not trying to assign blame to Batman! How many times do I have to say it? "absolutely no fault of the hero" "Batman's hands are clean"

The problem with stories like this is not that we are secretly blaming the heroes for killing them anyway. It's that they perpetuate the myth that villains are always punished by fate or by their own actions or whatever, and that they ought to be punished, and that this punishment can and will happen while we sit back and keep our hands clean. Sure, people sometimes bring about their own downfall with little to no outside influence. But for the most part, if we want to see people be punished, we are probably going to have to make it happen. If we decide to go ahead and punish them, fine, as long as we're taking responsibility for it.

And c'mon man, people try to save the villains in Disney movies all the time. "Give me your hand!" *the villain withdraws his hand and sneers and falls to his death*

Date: 2012-10-03 03:13 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Except you responded to my response to eyz, who seemed to be under the impression - at least, from how I read it - that we should be reading this as a story where Batman gets to kill Joe Chill with no consequences. Eyz stated that the story was a complicated way of having Batman kill Joe Chill with none of the grief. I stated that I don't think the story's aiming for that at all. You seem to have interpreted what eyz was saying in a different way.

Date: 2012-10-04 04:59 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Because you kept bringing it up. I stated from the start that I was working from a different interpretation. You said "Batman's hands wouldn't have even been dirty if he hadn't tried to save Joe". I said, "Of course Batman's hands are clean, that is the point", and you go back to insisting that Batman tried to save Joe Chill even though I've been agreeing with you on that the whole time.

Heck, even eyz put "kill" in quotation marks, indicating it wasn't really killing, but you're hyperfocused on defending Batman from culpability. He's a fictional character, of course he's not culpable for anything. Conversely, what does it matter if Batman goes out of his way to try to save Chill, when a contrived series of events end up killing off Chill anyway? He's dead either way.

Date: 2012-10-03 02:34 pm (UTC)
filthysize: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filthysize
I've read this before, and I liked it, but I can never buy that a political red ball case like the Waynes would have a rookie on his first case as the primary.


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