cyberghostface: (Spidey & MJ)
[personal profile] cyberghostface posting in [community profile] scans_daily

Dying in Dr. Octopus' body, Spidey confronts Ock (in his body) one last time. Peter is unable to transfer his consciousness back, but as his life flashes before his eyes Ock receives them as well via their mental link, with himself in place of Peter in them.

Ock (still in Spidey's body) tells Spidey he doesn't want this, and asks how he can do what Spidey does. Spidey (in Ock's body) tells him that he has to, because with great power...

But "Ock" is dead.

While this will probably last as long as Captain America's death did, I actually like the idea of a (reformed?) Ock as Spider-Man. I think there's a lot of potential with this idea and I'm definitely on board for Superior Spider-Man.

So I'm surprised to say this, but kudos to Slott. I'm looking forward to see where Ock!Spidey goes from here.

EDIT: There's an interesting write-up here.
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Date: 2012-12-26 05:08 am (UTC)
protogarrett: (Default)
From: [personal profile] protogarrett
I imagine the true Parker Memories will resurface and retain dominance so that Ock's personality no longer exists leaving only a true Peter Parker (of sorts).

Also, won't people notice "Peter" not acting like, well, Peter?

Date: 2012-12-26 06:42 am (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
But that would still mean the actual Peter Parker is dead.

Date: 2012-12-26 02:41 pm (UTC)
sir_mikael: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sir_mikael
Yeah like in Exiles when Proteus took over Morph completely and then they managed to brainwash Proteus to think he was Morph.

Date: 2012-12-26 04:08 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
When things like that happen in comic books I find it so grim.

Date: 2012-12-26 08:12 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Well, there's a lot of philosophical/argument games you can play with that. What is the self? Is it the memories you have? If that's the case, then you could make the case that what we have is still Peter Parker's body and memories, but with Doc Ock's personality (and, therefore, memories) attached.

Date: 2012-12-26 07:28 am (UTC)
lorriek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lorriek
Personally, I'd still consider Peter Parker to be dead in that scenario. I accept that souls and heavens and hells objectively exist in the MU (even if they're portrayed inconsistently), and unless Peter's talk with Uncle Ben was just a dream he had while his heart stopped, Peter's soul was coming back to heaven or wherever after this last battle. Whoever is driving his body, I can't see how it would really be Peter Parker unless his soul was in there.

We have to hope that M.J. does notice that Peter isn't Peter. Because otherwise... well, people can probably see the very bad direction this could go. I just hope Slott was sensible and doesn't go there.

I'm astonished this is the storyline they chose to commemorate 700 issues of ASM. Just, why?

Date: 2012-12-26 12:41 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
"Because otherwise... well, people can probably see the very bad direction this could go. I just hope Slott was sensible and doesn't go there."

The old MJ they wouldn't but post-OMD MJ? Slott is the one who came up with the Bobby Carr (steroid-using obnoxious user post-OMD boyfriend of MJ) and would have had us believe MJ (who still had all her last 20 years of character development and remembered her time with Peter and being Spidey's Significant Other with all that detailed) was in love with the dude and even living with him (and she only dumped him because of the drugs apparently). And this is the same Editorial staff that showed Michelle unironically getting it on with Chameleon posed as Peter (and then had Peter cracking jokes about it!) and then when there was a backlash said it was only "kissing". So no I wouldn't put it past them.

Date: 2012-12-26 06:52 am (UTC)
walkingthroughforest: (Default)
From: [personal profile] walkingthroughforest
Excuse me for a minute, I think there's a baby I have to go kick somewhere.

Date: 2012-12-26 06:55 am (UTC)
randyripoff: (howard the duck)
From: [personal profile] randyripoff
I'm wavering between "eh" or "Meh".

To me, this isn't much different from giving Peter six arms. I'm just not that into it.

Date: 2012-12-26 07:08 am (UTC)
seisachtheia: (Default)
From: [personal profile] seisachtheia
Hmm. Well, that's...weird. Maybe he and Loki can meet and have coffee and swap tips about being bad guys who took the place of good guys. Or something.

Date: 2012-12-26 07:09 am (UTC)
zabilac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zabilac
I'm not really getting how Oc is suddenly reformed villain.
Edited Date: 2012-12-26 07:15 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-12-26 10:57 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
He's just had Peter's entire heroic career and ethos crashloaded into his own mind, the sheer strength of Peter's morality and heroism, which Octavius has just experienced as first hand memories, are more powerful than Octavius' petty greed and vanity. He can't be the villain any more because he's seen a better way of doing things, and having seen it, must act on it, because it's what Peter would have done.

Date: 2012-12-26 11:28 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
I don't know how that makes sense, seeing as how his response is to let Peter (in Ock's body) die and continue living as Peter, declaring he will be superior to Peter and be better than he ever was. That's not what Peter would've done at all.

Date: 2012-12-26 03:56 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Because the primary personality is still Otto. He's now informed by Peter's memories, but if you asked him his name his first repsonse would be "Otto Octavius". He'll live using the name "Peter Parker" because that's who he looks like and trying to live as anyone else would be pointlessly confusing.

And AFAIK he doesn't "let" Peter die. Peter dies because there's nothing that CAN be done to save him, but Otto can make that death less meaningless by continuing Peter's mission.

Date: 2012-12-26 04:31 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Your argument is that he is becoming a hero because of Peter's morality and heroism. But he is not acting according to Peter's morality and heroism. He is acting according to Octavius' ego.

If he is infected by Peter's morality, surely the moral choice would be to admit the truth, to not live a life of deception, to seek to make amends, to reverse the mind-transfer, etc.

Date: 2012-12-26 04:52 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
He is not acting purely according to it, because he has not been completely rewritten by it, he is still Otto Octavius with Otto's ego (as evinced here with his description of himself as a genius, as if Peter hadn't been one too), but he now has new memories, new aspects to personality merged into his own. He will act as a hero, because the part of him that is Peter won't let him be anything else, but on his own terms, because there is still a strong part of Otto in there. He can't be the Otto he was, but he also can't be Peter, he CAN be something else, something he didn't expect, Spider-Man, and still a hero, but exactly what it means to be a hero for this newly merged psyche is soemthing that is, at best, a work in progress.

Admitting to who he really was/had been would prevent him being able to be a Spider-Man, so there's pragmatism AND arrogance there.

Just because he's a hero now, with a different morality, doesn't mean he's going to be a nice guy.

Date: 2012-12-27 01:48 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
"He will act as a hero, because the part of him that is Peter won't let him be anything else"

See, that comes across as completely false. Someone with Peter Parker's memories and experiences won't become a hero under any circumstances, that's just deterministic. Maybe they might kill themselves, maybe they might become bitter at life. You would expect, that in Ock's case, where he became Spider-man through murder and deception, Peter's memories would lead to him coming clean, instead of continuing the deception.

How do you expect me to believe that Ock feels enough responsibility for the lives of the people of the world at large that he is compelled to go out and play the hero and save them, when the main thing he feels about the person he killed is a sense of superiority?

Date: 2012-12-27 03:52 am (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
"Someone with Peter Parker's memories and experiences won't become a hero under any circumstances, that's just deterministic."

Exactly, which is why he very much *isn't* doing what Peter would do in the same situation. Giant ego, and all that.

Date: 2012-12-27 06:25 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
"How do you expect me to believe that Ock feels enough responsibility for the lives of the people of the world at large that he is compelled to go out and play the hero and save them, when the main thing he feels about the person he killed is a sense of superiority?"

Date: 2012-12-27 02:59 pm (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
A sense of responsibility and a sense of superiority aren't mutually exclusive. They can often go hand-in-hand actually, with a person feeling responsible specifically because an inflated sense of self-importance makes them think they're the only one equipped for the task.

Date: 2012-12-28 01:32 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
How is that supposed to work when he's responsible for the death of Peter Parker, but still feels superior to him afterwards and doesn't care all that much that he died?

Date: 2012-12-29 01:42 am (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
Responsibility does not equal guilt. A sense of responsibility can come from a more remote, distant place than the trademark Parker (god bless 'im' for it) hand-wringing.

Date: 2012-12-26 04:54 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
He's still Otto, but an Otto Octavius who's been hit by the full weight of what it means to be Spider-man, from the inside.

Is he going to assimilate all that and become Spider-man through and through? Hell no. But he can no longer be the villain he was, because that villain didn't have those experiences.

Date: 2012-12-27 04:29 am (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
What gets me about that is that Ock's essentially been brainwashed. So to me, he's not becoming a hero because he's genuinely had a good long think and decided to reform, he's doing it because his brain was actually rejiggered by Peter. He's not doing it because he wants to, even if he might think that's why he's doing it, but because he's been programmed to, and underneath he's still the same criminal asshole that he's always been.
Come to think of it, I kind of expect that to come up at some point in Superior Spider-Man (which I don't plan on reading) the idea that maybe Doc Ock's reform isn't as straightforward as it might seem could be pretty interesting.

Date: 2012-12-26 07:39 am (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
I think this is awful on multiple levels, including the thematic, somewhat nonsensical in the Marvel U (Surely Spidey's friends and allies would catch on eventually, in which case them not doing anything would be pretty damned immoral) as well as creepy and off-putting, and it genuinely makes me kind of angry, but I can get over it. I wasn't reading Spider-Man before this, and this certainly isn't going to have me rushing out to buy it, so I'm not that disappointed that this is a direction that I won't be onboard for and we all know that even if sales don't plummet and give Marvel a swift kick in the ass (which is my personal hope given that I'm sick of Marvel being so weirdly antagonistic and dismissive of what its fans want) things will still probably be back to normal in a year or so, and even if Dan Slott is genuinely dedicated to making this the status quo, which I somewhat doubt for the above reasons of it making no damn sense, it'll still end eventually. Because at some point a writer is going to get on the book and say "Hey, I want to write that actual fucking Spider-Man, not this weak shit." and change it back.
No, what really gets me about this is just who is it supposed to be for? Pretty much all the reaction I've seen online has been resoundingly negative, so clearly fans are not pleased with this. I don't think it'll appeal to the casual fan eithe someone familiar with Spidey from the movies and such, would probably pick this up and dismiss it as the kind of the stupid shit that makes comics inaccessible.
So who is this supposed to appeal to? It pisses off the hardcore fans, and the casual fans probably won't be interested, so I just don't see any point to this move. Is this just Dan Slott's vanity story or something?
Anyway, I might elaborate later, but right now I'm pretty tired so this is all I have to say:
This is dumb, offends me as a fan, and I'm not going to buy it.

Date: 2012-12-26 12:14 pm (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
Never assume Internet reaction is reflective of actual real world reception. If it was, BLUE BEETLE, UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN, THOR THE MIGHTY AVENGER, and various other "fan favorites" would have been best sellers instead of cancelled.

Date: 2012-12-26 05:43 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
I don't know, I wasn't really around for OMD/BND, but I know a lot of people where pissed off and I was always under the impression that Marvel did actually lose a decent chunk of sales over it.
You're right though, the only one I can really speak for is myself, we'll just have to wait and see how it sells to see what fans actually think. But then first issue sales tend to be inflated, so we'll probably need to wait a couple months to get a really accurate picture of what's happened sales-wise and whether the fans are actually angry enough to leave. Which is kind of boring and will take a while.

Date: 2012-12-26 06:02 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
That sounds about right, maybe not a great decision, since losing one reader would mean losing three comic sales instead one, but that definitely sounds like the sort of troll logic that one of the Big Two publishers would use.
Also, I can't be the only one who thinks it's weird that we only have one proper Spidey solo right now. Scarlet Spider and Venom are sort of close, but not the same, and Avenging is more focused on the superheroics than the personal drama that is Spidey's trademark. It's just odd to me that Slott's been monopolizing solo Spidey for a while now.

Date: 2012-12-27 03:50 am (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
Ah, but it'd also mean gaining three sales instead of one each time they get a new reader. Personally, in the current marketplace of umpteen Wolverine books and gazillion Batman titles, I kind of like the idea of a publisher, for once, stepping in the other direction. Which brings me to my next point...

"Also, I can't be the only one who thinks it's weird that we only have one proper Spidey solo right now. Scarlet Spider and Venom are sort of close, but not the same, and Avenging is more focused on the superheroics than the personal drama that is Spidey's trademark."

I don't see how this is at all a bad thing. In my opinion, it'd be even better if those other three books were about characters without ties to Spider-Man at all, creations that stood on their own. I'm disappointed every time I find out that DC's newest exciting title is yet another Batbook. A diversity of titles is a good thing. Lord knows, the Big Two is poor enough as it is in that department.

Date: 2012-12-27 04:07 am (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
True, true. Really though, I would think that it'd be best to have the most possible readers, rather than just balancing things out by try to sell more to fewer. They're a business though, so I suppose I should probably bow to Marvel's superior knowledge in this field.

I agree that it's good to have diversity in books, and I wouldn't sacrifice Scarlet Spider or Venom, for another Spider-book, but it'd still be nice to have a second Spidey solo. If only because it's good to have a couple of different takes on a character available to readers so that if a reader likes the character but doesn't like Writer A they can just read Writer B's take on them. Also, publishing two or three different books once a month instead of one book three times a month would allow for more consistent art and a clear visual identity, instead of a rotating team like ASM has had.

Date: 2012-12-26 07:42 am (UTC)
sun_man: this is Dick Grayson (Default)
From: [personal profile] sun_man
I'm okay with this. but than I haven't given a shit about 616 Spidey since OMD so what do I know

Date: 2012-12-26 07:44 am (UTC)
weber_dubois22: (Assimilation)
From: [personal profile] weber_dubois22
I'm not even a regular reader of Amazing Spider-Man, let alone kept constant track of the arc that led us to this event, but this was some sad writing and artwork.

Moreover, the Miguel fan is kinda disappointed and glad that it isn't him who's the Superior Spider-Man. Now my wallet can't bludgeon me to death for adding another comic to my list.

I'm not really getting how Oc is suddenly reformed villain.

Neither am I, honestly. A 'shared connection' or not, I'm not sure how a montage of Peter's hardships would even have Doctor Octopus budge remotely on his hatred of Spider-Man in the least, let alone want to do "good" as the new Spider-Man. This is a narrative cop-out if I ever read one.
Edited Date: 2012-12-26 07:47 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-12-26 07:52 am (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod
Wasn't the official position that Doc Ock knew about suffering and life etc. but was so bitter and spiteful he just didn't give a shit and had gotten moreso as the years went on?
Because that Doc would laugh in the face of this little montage.

Date: 2012-12-26 10:59 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Except it's not just a visual montage, it's now things he remembers happening to him first hand, with all the emotional resonance that they had for Peter.

Date: 2012-12-26 08:19 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Hahaha, someone post that scene where Doc Ock (as Peter) insults Mary Jane for being useless, making her blurt out she still loves him, and then they kiss.

Date: 2012-12-26 08:49 am (UTC)
biod: Spider-Man summons the spiders, because he is Spider-Man (Marvel Adventures Spider-Man)
From: [personal profile] biod

Date: 2012-12-26 09:51 am (UTC)
suzene: (Default)
From: [personal profile] suzene
That can't be what it sounds like. Was nothing learned from the Van Lente "spider-rape" debacle?

Date: 2012-12-26 10:08 am (UTC)
chrisdv: (Default)
From: [personal profile] chrisdv
You'd think so, but clearly that isn't the case.

Date: 2012-12-26 10:23 am (UTC)
sir_razorback: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sir_razorback
Yeah, it's pretty much exactly what it sounds like. What gets me is how can 700 be so.. BAD.. while Avenging 15.1 is actually good? Different writers, I know, but essentially continuing the same story.

Ok, first off, things about 700 that REALLY ticked me off.

The scene described above
The Dues-Ex-Machina that Slott pulls out of Spidey's head (literally) to prevent a reverse-swap
Trying to sell that Pete is in Doc's body and vice/versa
Paste-Pot Pete(!) identifying brain-swapping tech at a glance!

Ok.. I have some pet theories, possible outs and predictions that I'm going to throw out there. Some of it is from #700 info, and some is from Avenging 15.1.

Have they actually swapped bodies?

My answer is *no*. A 'soul' isn't something you can download and remote transfer! It just dosen't work that way. What I think Ock did was over-think himself. He didn't NEED to overwrite Pete's brain patterns on his own. All he needed to do was over-write his on top of Pete's brain, and have chuckles with himself before his corpse checked out. That out-of-body experience could have just been the Pete-memories firing off and creating a sub-conscious refuge for him when his body was dying.

What if Marvel says *yes* to this, though? There's a possibility in a throw-away panel in 15.1. Sp/Ock is walking into his research lab and a couple scientists who know him greet him at the door. One of them is very excited about an invention he's working on, and I quote...

"Yeah, and I think I found a way to actually catch a ghost and hold it indefinitely!"

It could be a throwaway panel, or it could be Chris Yost (who has me completely sold in his writing of this book, BTW) introducing one possible hook to get the right man back in his brain.

Another page from earlier in the book, Sp/Ock is debating in his head how to dump Mary Jane because she's a distraction. Thinking about her causes a cascade effect of memories and you can smell the utter brain-lock as the images come up. There is a VERY sexy panel (respectfully sexy mind you, not skeevy-sexy) right in the middle of the montage and all he can say is "Dear god, that woman!" "Peter Parker is a fool."

So this raises the spectre of the real Peter's memories, as mentioned by Protogarrett, trying to claw their way back out to the surface. Of course by the time that happens, Sp/Ock will have had all sorts of time to utterly screw with his life. I think 2-3 years out we'll have Pete back in control of his own headspace, but they'll use the time in between to further drive a wedge between him and MJ. This really seems to be the Quesada/Slott directive, hammer that relationship from every angle possible. It might not be until the end of the decade before everything is finally sorted out, and this period will be known as the Black Years in Spider-man history.

Date: 2012-12-26 08:20 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Well, Peter had his moments, but Ock took it to the next level there. What's oddly funny is that Ock isn't completely wrong there--MJ's really only been there to give Peter pep talks lately.

Date: 2012-12-26 10:07 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kd_the_movie
I think its pretty obvious that KAINE is going to be the one who knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that it isnt Peter, 'specially since Kaine is still indebted to Peter for saving his life and helping him have his new lease on life.

Date: 2012-12-26 02:27 pm (UTC)
sir_mikael: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sir_mikael
Lol, didn't Kaine kill Doc Ock once?

Date: 2012-12-26 05:52 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
I don't know if it'll definitely be him, but it is an interesting idea. He's probably due for some interaction with the main title at this point, so I wouldn't be caught completely off guard, though I'll be disappointed if his first real proper interaction with Spidey is actually with a murdering body snatcher version.
I'd kind of love it though if Ock was scared shitless of Kaine since Kaine actually killed him back in the day, that would make my day since I don't think I'll be able to root for Spider-Ock as a protagonist unless Slott proves himself to be a ridiculously good writer.

Date: 2012-12-26 10:08 am (UTC)
chrisdv: (Default)
From: [personal profile] chrisdv
So many things about this pissed me off when I read it a week ago (My LCS broke the street date for this week's comics for their customers with pull lists) but one thing (Out of many) that really pissed me off - Dan Slott seems to think the ASM readers can't remember the last time Ock was seen, trying to KILL 98% OF LIFE ON EARTH so he'd be remembered as history's greatest monster, all of 8 months ago.

Date: 2012-12-26 12:12 pm (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
"Dan Slott seems to think the ASM readers can't remember the last time Ock was seen, trying to KILL 98% OF LIFE ON EARTH so he'd be remembered as history's greatest monster, all of 8 months ago."

What makes you say that? This is a Dr. Octopus transformed by first-hand experience of Peter's memories and morality.

Date: 2012-12-26 12:45 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
What kind of transformation is this? He has basically killed Peter Parker as a result of his actions, and his response is to say he will be superior to Peter and be a better Peter Parker than Peter ever was. How on earth would have sharing Peter's memories and guilt and sense of responsibility and so on have led him to this conclusion? It's nonsensical.

Date: 2012-12-26 12:55 pm (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
It's imbued him with a morality of sorts, but he still has his innate arrogance.

Date: 2012-12-26 01:26 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
And on what is this morality based? If he's experienced all of Peter's memories (a montage of cradling dead people in his arms), we would think that he has acquired a form of guilt-based morality. He would be driven to act because of the people he has failed to protect, the times he has failed to live up to responsibilities. He cannot bear to let people be hurt because of his inaction.

But Doc Ock, having just killed Peter Parker, doesn't feel guilty. He's not trying to figure out a way to re-wire Peter Parker's brain meats and bring Peter Parker back. He's not torn up by the thought of having to deal with Peter Parker's loved ones, now that the man they cared about is dead. Instead, he's thinking to himself how he'll be superior to Parker, meaning that it's probably a good thing that he got to take over Parker's life.

This is just completely arbitrary. Slott expects us to believe that Spider-man's memories and experiences would make Ock want to continue being the man he killed and stole the identity of, while still remaining a sociopathic narcissist. It's substituting scientific mumbo-jumbo for character development.

Date: 2012-12-26 02:01 pm (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
People can be sociopath narcissists yet still follow their own code of morality. See: Dr. Doom.

Date: 2012-12-26 02:10 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Yes, I am asking you to elaborate on Octo-Spiderman's morality. How has he reached these decisions? How do his actions make any sense given the experiences he has had? If he is a sociopathic narcissist, why would Parker's memories have any effect on him?

I mean, I would understand a Sociopathic Spider-man, where Ock is taking over Peter's life and raping Mary Jane to feed his enormous ego. I'm not complaining that Ock is a sociopath. I'm complaining that his actions are nonsensical and that the story is poorly written.

Date: 2012-12-26 04:00 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Because they're not "Parkers memories" anymore, they are now his own and he can't escape that. He's experienced a sort of "Road to Damascus" moment, though not through his own experiences, but by acquiring Peter's.

Peter's compassion and heroism has "infected" Otto's personality, not overwhelming it, but certainly informing it in new ways.

Date: 2012-12-26 04:25 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Yes, how so? In what way? What are the moral principles he follows?

I feel like I'm repeating myself. Spider-man works on a guilt-based morality. He cannot bear to have people die when he could have done something to save them. That's why the illustration of his morality is him holding a sequence of dying people.

Dr. Octopus is not behaving as though he is guilty of causing Peter Parker's death. He is not torn up at the idea of having to deceive all of Peter Parker's loved ones, now that Parker is dead at his hands. He is not trying to rewire his/Peter Parker's brain and bring Peter Parker back. His heroism is ego-based: he will be a better Spider-man than Spider-man.

What on earth has he learned from Peter Parker's memories that lead him to decide to be a hero?

Date: 2012-12-26 05:02 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
In short, and to repeat a trope, "With great power comes great responsibility". This is not a lessson Otto ever learned, until now, but now it's a part of him.

Peter Parker worked on guilt based morality, but informed by the above. Otto can learn from one and become the other, but filtered through his own, dominant, perceptions. He won't let innocent people die either, but he might do so by very different means to Peter, such as killing the one doing the threatening. By preventing those people from threatening/harming others ever again, his ego would be satisfied too because he'd have gone one "better" than Peter.

Date: 2012-12-26 10:58 pm (UTC)
lorriek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lorriek
I don't see how they expect us to think Ock's decision is based on anything other than than egoism. The dude just murdered a man so he can wear his body and he seems pretty okay with it. He's certainly not going to confess to the Avengers or anything. The only thing that being inserted into Peter's memories seemed to achieve was Ock deciding that he could be a superior hero compared to Peter. This may be preferable to Ock using Peter's body for evil, but it's not a decision based on any sort of morality. If we are supposed to think differently, Slott should have written it differently.

Date: 2012-12-26 09:54 pm (UTC)
chrisdv: (Default)
From: [personal profile] chrisdv
Yes, but it's still Otto Octavius, the guy who tried to kill wipe out most of the life on Earth during his last appearance.

Date: 2012-12-27 03:42 am (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
I don't see anything here to make me think we're meant to forget that fact rather than be aware of it, coloring the scene with a further sense of unease and tragedy. This isn't exactly a triumphant "hero, hoorah!" scene.

Date: 2012-12-26 10:53 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
I don't recognise that woman with the glasses and bathrobe. Or any of these characters, really. And for once, that isn't Humberto Ramos' fault.

Seriously...ever since "One More Day", every giant advertised event story in Spider-Man's life just seems to have the net result of making him an unlikeable jerk in an entirely different way.

Date: 2012-12-26 02:30 pm (UTC)
sir_mikael: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sir_mikael
I think.... that's Jonah's wife Marla, Gwen, Captain Stacy and Billy Conners?

Date: 2012-12-26 02:35 pm (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
Marla died? I am disappoint.

I knew who the others were - my comment was trying to be subtle, as I hardly recognise ANY of these characters based on the way they're written.

Date: 2012-12-26 08:24 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Yep, early on in Slott's "Big Time" arc.

Date: 2012-12-26 11:04 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
s_d regular [personal profile] chocochuy asked me, due to them not being around for a couple of weeks, to post this when ASM 700 was posted, and so I will, but bear in mind this is not icon_uk's POV and I won't be replying to any comments left in reply to it.

Having just read Amazing Spiderman 700 and its subsequent epilogue, there is a taste of both sadness and powerlessness withing myself.

I remember it was around Winter 1998 when I had the chance to read the infamous "Web of Death" arc and I actually believed Spidey was going to die just when life was starting to smile. After months of wangst and senseless anger, Spidey was starting to recover his optimism and was gonna become a father just for some deadly virus to start devouring his health. I remember crying all those nights on December trying to know he was going to survive and, to my surprise, salvation came in the likes of Otto Octavius. Both men had been mortal enemies for years yet teamed up to restore themselves to their former glory in some particular "friendship". Tears of joy rolled around my cheek as Spidey was given a second chance and it was very sad to see Otto die at the end. Cliche as it may have been, that was one helluva story and one of me favorite Spidey/Doc Ock dynamics.

Which brings us to this recent world shattering event.

I am not gonna dwell on the details but I felt this issue was more a pastiche of rushed elements rather than the mother of all storylines. Yep, it was heartwarming to have Spidey makes peace with all his dead friends, I even cried with Uncle Ben, but it seemed as if such scene wasnt really part of the actual story. I somehow feel we were meant to have much more context on the death of our favorite wall-crawler and only got to see just 70 % of the intended story. It went too fast as Otto went from impact-webbing MJ and the others with prejudice to Spidey incarnated (although his faux memories looked nice, especially the one where he lifts all that machinery). The epilogue did a much better job at re-humanizing Otto and, by Crom, making him gain new respect to our late friendly neighbor. May Galactus have mercy now that the Superior Spiderman is here to stay, ready to crush us like flies(or to have crushes ON us as Icon_UK once mentioned).

I could rant some more but, to be honest, I was not that shocked with this story. Do not get me wrong, I am slightly mad with Dan Slott but I wouldnt go so low as sending him death threats as it was informed when this issue was leaked. It was a half-baked cop out and we will miss our good old Peter Parker as we did with Kal-El on 1992 (coincidence?)but there were some enjoyable moments. Only time will tell how will the Superior Spiderman will impact the Marvel Universe and it would be interesting to see how will this affect the Mephisto Deal considering Peter`s true soul is no longer inside his body. Anyhow, a minute of silence for a fallen hero.

Date: 2012-12-26 11:33 am (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
I love how the next-to-last page is sentiment both noble and petty.

Ock's internal monologue is probably going to be the best part of this, with all the interactions he's going to be having.

(I totally want something with Iron Man, just for something like..

" .. do you remember that time I brought you to your knees, begging? "

" .. what? "

" Oh, nothing.. ")

I have only one thing to say…

Date: 2012-12-26 01:39 pm (UTC)
bewareofgeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bewareofgeek
With great power does NOT come great egotism.

_Superior_? Not in my eyes.

Date: 2012-12-26 02:24 pm (UTC)
spikespeigel: (planetary_elijah_jakita)
From: [personal profile] spikespeigel
Meh. Bendis did it better. I know, I'm as shocked as you are that I actually said that. But I was genuinely moved by how the Ultimate universe dealt with Peter's death. And the world knew he was dead. This just feels like, even in the end, Peter ended up with the short end of the stick.

Date: 2012-12-26 02:37 pm (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
Technically, Bendis did it better - TWICE. He did the "Freaky Friday" thing with Ultimate Wolverine, recognising that it's only a worthwhile plot device when played for laughs, and he gave Peter a heroic and meaningful death.

So, yes. Bendis 2; Slott...a very very large negative number, considering the other awfulness he's visited upon poor Peter.

Date: 2012-12-26 05:18 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
Oh yeah, Bendis' death was just miles better than this, and it actually felt respectful and in character. Peter Parker dies kicking ass and protecting his family even though he's been dealt a shitty hand, it doesn't get more Spider-Man than that.
By comparison, here Pete dies after being outwitted and defeated by his greatest enemy, and his last act is to hope that he can somehow guilt trip Doc Ock, a man who just months previously tried to kill 98% of life on Earth, into being a good guy. He essentially dies just kind of hoping that Doc Ock won't kill and destroy everything that Peter worked for. It is a shit death and it does not feel like a fitting send off.

Date: 2012-12-26 08:28 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
I dunno, I kinda looked at it as a "be careful what you wish for" kind of thing. Peter died, but in some small way, he took part of Otto down with him. Of course, this all depends on how Ock will go forward from here.

Date: 2012-12-26 06:46 pm (UTC)
thefiretonight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thefiretonight
Imma let you finish, Slott, but Bendis had the best Parker death of all time…

Date: 2012-12-27 08:33 pm (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
Exactly, at least when Bendis killed Peter, he gave him the respect he was due. Slott on the other hands craps all over Peter again, as he's been doing since BND started.

Date: 2012-12-26 02:38 pm (UTC)
sir_mikael: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sir_mikael
I think this is sort of interesting actually. Of course, people will notice eventually and it'd be interesting if to see what happens then if they stick to it. I want him to be kicked out of the Avengers and hunted down for a while, that could be a great story. Spidey would be a loner outcast again, but this time because he's actually a villain. Things will get back to normal eventually.

But a lot of icky stuff can happen with MJ in the mean time of course which is less good. And uh didn't Ock already have all of Pete's memories? So I fail to see why getting them again would have any real impact on him?
And I wanna know what the hell is up with the costume changes, is it just to claw at people? Before it was confirmed it was Otto I assumed they were how the new Spidey would wall-crawl (like Miguel O'Hara does) but I guess not.

Date: 2012-12-26 05:25 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
Yeah, this is kind of why part of me doesn't think this is going to last long. It might have worked back in Spidey's early days when even other heroes didn't trust him, but with the current status quo there's no way they wouldn't catch on. And if the Avengers or whoever does find out then they pretty much have to do something because to not do anything would be grossly immoral. It's not even a Magneto-esque case where the dude has genuinely reformed and is just trying to make amends, Doc Ock murdered a dude and stole his life and is now walking around avoiding justice, even with the guilt download he's still a multiple murderer, so they can't let this slide, especially when the murdered man is someone whom they've all known and fought alongside.
I don't know about the MJ thing though, I mean, Slott has been kind of annoying with how he teases the fans about how MJ and Supe!Spidey'll be getting together, but I really hope he doesn't go through with that. It would be genuinely fucked up and I would genuinely hope that Slott catches a lot of shit for it. Because it is a rape-y concept. Just saying.

Date: 2012-12-26 08:32 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
I guess you could say that Ock was utilizing Peter's memories by picking up the pertinent information, but Peter's mind-meld forced Ock to, for the first time, truly see the world and experiences through the eyes of Peter Parker.

Date: 2012-12-26 03:16 pm (UTC)
auggie18: (Default)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
...wait, did this just come out? I thought this came out weeks ago. Even my friends who are only vaguely into comics have been making jokes about it for a while. (Spider-Man's been acting pretty odd recently. It's like he's running on Otto-pilot!)

Date: 2012-12-26 03:41 pm (UTC)
auggie18: (Default)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
Oh, okay. Thanks. Haven't really been reading Spider-Man since he worked at a high school, so most of the information I get about the comic is third hand.

Date: 2012-12-26 04:33 pm (UTC)
an_idol_mind: (Default)
From: [personal profile] an_idol_mind
Well, that means that I finally have a Spider-Man who didn't sell his marriage to the Devil, I guess.

Date: 2012-12-26 04:39 pm (UTC)
an_idol_mind: (Default)
From: [personal profile] an_idol_mind
Incidentally, I would think this also voids the Mephisto deal, since MJ made sure he'd leave Peter alone until the end of his days, and the end of said days have just happened.

Date: 2012-12-26 04:56 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
First of all, if anyone thinks this is going to last for more than a couple of story arcs they're fools.

That said, as such a story arc... I kinda don't mind it. Slott might still fuck up the execution (he tends to do that) but as an idea it's... Kinda interesting.

Date: 2012-12-26 08:33 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
I'd be surprised if lasted longer than Dick's previous tenure as Batman.

Date: 2012-12-26 06:02 pm (UTC)
kirke_novak: (Marvel: Spidey/JJJ)
From: [personal profile] kirke_novak
Just been on Bleeding Cool where there's a discussion about the implications of this, if Ock has sex with MJ. Generally, a bunch of guys deciding on what is and isn't rape.Literally. Gems include "sex is a physical thing, she's having sex with Peters body so no" and "she consented to have sex with Ock even if she believed its Peter so no rape."

I immediately run here.

Date: 2012-12-26 06:35 pm (UTC)
kirke_novak: (Marvel: Deadpool WTF?!)
From: [personal profile] kirke_novak
If its not forceful it doesn't count.

Date: 2012-12-26 08:37 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
I think this is one of those things that can't be really compared to real-life concepts due to silly Comic Book Science.

I mean, this is the body of Peter Parker, the memories of Peter Parker, with the personality and memories of another man. There is deceit, and if MJ found out she would lose her shit, but I don't know if "rape" is the right word.

Date: 2012-12-26 08:54 pm (UTC)
bardbrain: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bardbrain
Here's the thing.

Ock has Peter's memories. What if he goes out on a date with MJ, forgets he's Ock, and they get together? Then Ock is the one who wakes up the next morning wondering what came over him?

Icky? Yes. Icky can be a good story. But it dodges the rapey issue for the most part.

Date: 2012-12-27 02:58 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
Do these people not know about "rape by deception"?

After the amount of bullshit that went down re: Chameleon? No. No, they do not.

Date: 2012-12-26 07:08 pm (UTC)
bardbrain: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bardbrain
Guys, guys. This isn't a permanent death.

This is just how the writer maneuvers Peter into a direct confrontation with Mephisto, builds up Doc Ock, kills off Kaine, and sets things up both for the real Peter and Mary Jane to be back together and for Spider-man to be an outlaw again.

This is the end of part one.

By the time this is over, we'll see dead Peter vs. Mephisto. Kaine will die. We'll probably at least see Ben Reilly again.

The whole idea here is constructing an epic out of things people hate, old and new. And that's what having a continuity lets a writer do.

Date: 2012-12-26 07:41 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
I would totally read that story of yours, it sounds pretty interesting. However, I think that if that's really the direction that Marvel is going with though, they should really make that clear as soon as possible. Because that's a cool story, I want to read that, but I'm still not at all interested in the whole Spider-Ock concept and I'm not going to read a book in the hopes that it will eventually change to be more to my liking. I'm not sure I'd want to see Kaine die though, I think his series is pretty good, so killing him off would be a bit of a waste.

Date: 2012-12-26 09:03 pm (UTC)
bardbrain: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bardbrain
We'll see.

My money is on any reveal happening late in Super Spider-man #1 or Superior #2. #2 would be smarter commercially because second issues always have a sales slump. They not only sell less than #1's but often sell less than #3's.

The flipside is, it probably means a very lengthy subplot that involves Peter in Hell... probably including an obligatory moment where he decides he belongs there and doesn't want to leave.

I think a story like this, done right, is all about approaching disturbing, dark, and icky story beats and then averting them climbing out of them.

That's great when a writer does that. It's just that online fandom seems to have PTSD from past disappointments and doesn't trust writers to do that.

Date: 2012-12-26 08:39 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
That sounds good, up until Kaine dying. I've liked what I've read of him in Scarlet Spider.

Date: 2012-12-26 08:58 pm (UTC)
bardbrain: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bardbrain
Well, keep in mind that Slott brought Kaine back. I think he did so based on the idea that it was a limited run thing that he could let another writer play with... and then has other plans that Kaine will get folded back into.

I think Kaine is a big part of the meta-arc though and that we may well see Kaine with Peter's mind or even as a vehicle that Ben Reilly's soul winds up attached to by the end.

It helps that Kaine is a tragic figure. I think Slott had a tragic end to Kaine's story in mind the minute he brought him back and that his use so far is largely to set him up for a preordained role later in the story.

Date: 2012-12-27 05:10 am (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Default)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d

Except for the killing off Kaine part. I happen to love the new Scarlet Spider book.

Date: 2012-12-26 07:09 pm (UTC)
raspberryrain: GIF (blink)
From: [personal profile] raspberryrain
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