cyberghostface: (Spidey & MJ)
[personal profile] cyberghostface posting in [community profile] scans_daily

Dying in Dr. Octopus' body, Spidey confronts Ock (in his body) one last time. Peter is unable to transfer his consciousness back, but as his life flashes before his eyes Ock receives them as well via their mental link, with himself in place of Peter in them.

Ock (still in Spidey's body) tells Spidey he doesn't want this, and asks how he can do what Spidey does. Spidey (in Ock's body) tells him that he has to, because with great power...

But "Ock" is dead.

While this will probably last as long as Captain America's death did, I actually like the idea of a (reformed?) Ock as Spider-Man. I think there's a lot of potential with this idea and I'm definitely on board for Superior Spider-Man.

So I'm surprised to say this, but kudos to Slott. I'm looking forward to see where Ock!Spidey goes from here.

EDIT: There's an interesting write-up here.
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Date: 2012-12-26 07:48 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
One thing that's annoying me here is people pointing out that this is a temporary move and that at some point it'll be changed back as though it's some revelation. No one thinks this is a permanent death, it's just a shitty death. People keep acting like pointing out that this is going to be temporary is somehow something that hasn't occurred to people who are upset, and if we only understood this then we wouldn't be upset, but of course it's occurred to people. We read comics, it's obvious to even the most casual reader. It just doesn't make it any less of a creepy, unpleasant concept and a weak, somewhat offensive death for a beloved character. No one can be expected to be happy that they can essentially write off a series and a character that they like for however long until this story ends.
Sorry if this seems like a bit of an overreaction, it's just that multiple people have said this sort of thing and it feels a little patronizing, as though they think that the people who are upset somehow don't understand what's going on. I understand perfectly, I just think that it's shit.

Date: 2012-12-26 09:34 pm (UTC)
intertobamf: (Default)
From: [personal profile] intertobamf
I suppose the next thing to say is "stop taking comics so seriously".

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Date: 2012-12-26 08:05 pm (UTC)
kirke_novak: (Marvel: Spidey/JJJ)
From: [personal profile] kirke_novak
I've just realised, if Peter's body didn't shut down... Does this mean he wanted this?????

Date: 2012-12-26 10:02 pm (UTC)
chrisdv: (Default)
From: [personal profile] chrisdv
The final of the USA Today article linked in the post actually made me realise a huge part of why I hate this arc - it's just Dan Slott's wish fulfilment of being Spider-Man, by taking the character most like him physically & having take Peter Parker's life.

Date: 2012-12-26 11:26 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
I give Slott enough credit that I don't think that that's actually what he's trying to do with the story, but I mean, you're right, it does kind of come off as weird wish fulfillment to some degree.

Date: 2012-12-26 10:17 pm (UTC)
his_spiffynesss: (Default)
From: [personal profile] his_spiffynesss

Sorry, it's my go-to reaction for everything that's wrong with Spider-Man.

Date: 2012-12-26 10:52 pm (UTC)
stillanerd: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stillanerd
Oh brother! I have SO much I want to say about this particular issue a mere message posting isn't even going to cut it. In fact, all the stuff I have to say about it is easily going to take up a very long blog post to go in more depth. My initial thoughts, however, are these:

In all fairness to Slott, I do understand what he was trying to attempt with this story--showing how Peter and Doc Ock are very much alike; how, under the right circumstances, they would have become just like the other; and how Peter can inspire others, even those who are villains, to learn the value of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility." All that being said, however, there was so much that was fundamentally WRONG with this story, to call it "bullshit" would be too inadequate a description. With the exception of Doc Ock, virtually every...single...character was forced to act like a complete idiot all for the sake of the plot (seriously, that Carlie Cooper scene not only made her into the world's most incompetent CSI in the NYPD, but why oh why didn't Peter tell her about her tattoo in addition to what he told her in this issue, considering how the only real Spidey would definitely know about something like that?). Doc Ock's so-called "redemption" was completely unearned and Peter didn't go out like a hero as he did in "The Death of Spider-Man" story Bendis did for Ultimate Spider-Man, but like a complete and utter chump. And good god! Don't even get me started on that Mary Jane/"Spock" kiss. Might as well batten down the hatches, cause we're in for the Chameleon/Michele Gonzales debacle x1000 with Superior Spider-Man.

This isn't to say it was completely terrible. I thought Peter's visit to the afterlife was pretty poignant and every scene with J. Jonah Jameson in was pure gold. I also don't have any illusions that this is going to be permanent, either. We know that, at the very least, there's a year's worth (25 issues or so) that Slott has planned and, given how Amazing Spider-Man 2 comes out in 2014, I'm pretty sure Peter Parker will be back by then if not sooner. Even so, whether Marvel likes it or not, this was not only a bad way to close out Spider-Man 50th Anniversary and Amazing Spider-Man, but it looks like they've now got a whole new Clone Saga on their hands with this hot mess.

Date: 2012-12-26 11:54 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
I hope you post a link to your blog post, because I have some serious problems with this and I'd really like to see what you think.
I'm in total agreement about the Death in Ultimate Spidey, it was just so much better, and it was Spider-Man through and through. Peter dies fighting and winning against impossible odds to save the people that he loves after the whole world has screwed him over and turned its back on him. As heartbreaking as that death was, it felt true to the character and like a fitting send off. This though, is awful, Peter dies a shit death and goes out hoping that his guilt trip has reformed a man who months previously tried to kill most of the people on the planet in an attempt to leave behind a legacy. I honestly don't buy that as something Peter Parker would do, there's absolutely no way he'd risk allowing a psychopath to run around with his powers and potentially hurt people, full stop.
And I'm in total agreement about Ock's "redemption". People have argued on this thread about whether or not Ock's really reformed, but to me the fact remains that he didn't change because he genuinely decided to become a good person, he literally go his brain jiggered with. It was essentially brainwashing to some extent and to me it means that at heart he's still the same asshole supervillain that he's always been.
I too am absolutely dreading the MJ/"Spidey" romance. I don't know if Slott wrote the Chameleon/Michele thing, but if he did then I think the dude is genuinely tone deaf about this stuff. It's a genuinely fucked up concept, and if they proceed with it I hope Marvel catches hell for it.
The scenes with Uncle Ben in the afterlife (or "afterlife" if you're feeling conspiratorial) did look touching though, I remember seeing them in a preview and almost being convinced to buy the issue until I found out about the ending and resolved not to support a story that I didn't enjoy.

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Date: 2012-12-27 05:41 am (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Default)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
I thought the ideal of Superior Spider-Man could've been awesome, but they had to fuck that up. Plus this was too obvious. It happened at the start of the arc. No twist or surprise ending. What would've made sense is if Peter did end up back in his body, but still thinks he's doc ock as a side effect. That would've been interesting to me.

Also what really bothers me is the MJ thing. Yes it seems petty to harp on OMD, but goddammit enough of the dicking fans around and trolling for trolling's sake. Just tell a goddamn story without trying to fuck with people. If not for that, I'd be more into this. I am not too angry though. Why? Because it's at least not Norman Osborne....seriously I can't tell you how fuckin annoyed I am with this guy getting laid with other people's which if they fixed the mess started with Sin's Past (to which I mean making the Stacy twins the children of Peter) I could've seen Gabrielle Stacy as Superior, buuut Marvel just loves keeping things that are stupid.

As far as villains triumphing over heroes go, I do think this was fairly good, but still I hope Doc doesn't pull a Karma Houdini.

Date: 2012-12-26 11:49 pm (UTC)
vspope: (carrot)
From: [personal profile] vspope
All I know is that in MY kind of comics, a sidekick's head is in a villain's brain in a hero's body, the villain's mind is stuck in a deer, the hero's brain is in a dish, one of the hero's teammates is a valkyrie's soul in a human's body, and the villains are a human head on a gorilla body and a woman who replaced her head with a plastic computer.

This? This is kid stuff.

Date: 2012-12-27 01:20 am (UTC)
raspberryrain: GIF (blink)
From: [personal profile] raspberryrain
Well, I guess we all knew that Slott was no Gerber.

Thanks for putting this in perspective.
Edited Date: 2012-12-27 01:22 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-12-27 05:42 am (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
You forgot the guy with the unfortunately shrunken skeletal structure.

(Poor bastard.)

Date: 2012-12-27 12:40 am (UTC)
r0b666: (Default)
From: [personal profile] r0b666
A few observations:

We as comic fans know it's temporary and that the real Peter will be back in time for Amazing Spider-Man 2. That alone makes it hard to react too strongly to this. The only way anyone was going to react strongly is if it was either very well done or very poorly done.

It just felt very "this is happening get on board" with no emotional depth to behind it. OMD was a steaming pile of shit, but at least it garnered a reaction. A negative one, but people felt a sense of loss there.

We knew when Johnny Storm, Steve Rogers and Bruce Wayne "died" they were all coming back eventually, somehow, but they all had emotional, well written "deaths". You gave a shit if you read those stories. Mostly because of the reaction and sense of loss by their loved ones. There's none of that here because no one knows he's "dead" except us and Otto.

To me Slott didn't even try to make it a good "death" scene. It just seems like a ham fisted vanity story as others have said. "Hey my 20 or so pages are almost full, time to wrap this up and kill Peter, so I can write "Spidey/Ock is a dick Issue #1".

And that is why everyone is saying "oh so Peter's dead"? *shrug* "He'll be back".

Another reason it didn't work for me. l didn't feel like Otto getting Peter's memories/experiences crammed into him in 2 pages flat somehow redeemed him. It just felt forced like Peter's death did. To me it was as if Otto was going "Oh OK.. you got me...I *should* be a good guy. I'll behave, OK? You go ahead and die now, so I can go bang Mary Jane".

And finally, when did Doctor Octopus become Spider-Man's "greatest" enemy? Has Dan Slott ever heard of Norman Fucking Osbourn? Saying over and over again that one guy is a hero's greatest enemy doesn't make it so. Scott Snyder can tell me how incredible and all powerful the Court of Owls is over and over, but I still know that the Joker is Batman's greatest villain. That kind of hype just makes it feel even more forced which seems to be par for the course.

In conclusion : An interesting idea, but the story execution sucked and I probably won't read "Superior" Spider-Man. Then again with a few random exceptions I haven't been reading any Spider-Man titles since OMD anyway.
Edited Date: 2012-12-27 12:46 am (UTC)

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Date: 2012-12-27 05:29 am (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Default)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
when did Doctor Octopus become Spider-Man's "greatest" enemy?

To be fair, he was originally until Norman came on the scene...then whenever Norman is gone, Doc is at the top of the list again.

Date: 2012-12-27 02:41 am (UTC)
jcbaggee: Jesus (Default)
From: [personal profile] jcbaggee
Pretty crazy twist. When does Amazing Spider-Man 2 hit theaters? May 2014.

Peter will be back by December 2013, then.

Date: 2012-12-27 03:35 am (UTC)
walkingthroughforest: (Default)
From: [personal profile] walkingthroughforest
The best thing about this issue was JM Dematteis backup story. Which is quite possibly now one of my favourite Spidey stories of all time.

Date: 2012-12-27 03:42 am (UTC)
ladytimedramon: (Gar Make the pain go away)
From: [personal profile] ladytimedramon
Silly question of the moment (since I very rarely read Spiderman)...

Doesn't Doc Ock have a thing for Aunt May?

What will be the implications NOW?

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Date: 2012-12-27 05:25 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Years ago, I tried a fanfic that ended sort of like this, with Anthony Serba (from the Clone Saga, sort of) getting Spider-Man's powers after Peter Parker's death. Serba got enough of Peter's memories to build web shooters and recognize the villains. But he didn't have an emotional connection to everything like Peter did, although Serba recognized Peter Parker was a good man doing good things,.

In that case, Serba decided to embrace his powers (forced on him by Miles Warren's crazy plans) become Spider-Man less because of "Great Responsibility" but because "Someone has to do it."

In this case, Otto Octavius is still enough of an egoist to decide "I'm going to be a better Spider-Man than Peter Parker ever was." As Kraven the Hunter can tell you, that never ends well.

Date: 2012-12-27 09:21 am (UTC)
dorksidefiker: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dorksidefiker
I think I'm having Clone Saga flashbacks.

And not the good parts of the Clone Saga either.

Of course, I haven't given 616!Spider-Man much thought since the Mephisto thing went down, and I doubt I'll be giving this plot line much attention either... which makes me sad, because some of my fondest memories from when I was a kid involve Spider-Man comics and my brother (back during the aforementioned Clone Saga, in fact).

Date: 2012-12-27 10:26 am (UTC)
team_mummy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] team_mummy
This reminds me of that bit near the end of The Crow movie when Brandon Lee transfers all his painful memories into that dude. Anyway, I can't really say I am feeling this story. I haven't liked 616 Peter since the JMS/JRJR era. Those are some good times.

Date: 2012-12-27 02:17 pm (UTC)
ablackraptor: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ablackraptor
Well, I'm dead now.

Notably enough, when I've told my non-comic reading family members about this, their reaction is the same as the more hardcore fans: Bitter resentment. Seriously, this is not how you send off a hero like Peter. But, everyone else has already said what I think, so all I have to say is this:

I'm now looking forward to Amazing Spider-Man 2, since they'll no doubt of restored him by then to tie the comics and films together, just as they did with Bucky Cap to tie in with the MCU film.

Edit: Also, this might be helped by the fact that Loki is in the body of Kid!Loki now. Evil Loki still owes a dept to Peter. Loki's daughter is the goddess of death, and is usually more than willing to help him out in some cases. Throw in Madame Webb, have MJ start acting competent, and we have a way to bring him back.
Edited Date: 2012-12-27 02:33 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-12-27 06:44 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
Stephen Wacker comes off as an absolute ass in those posts. Talking about the relationship and how consent factors into it is so not trivializing rape, his dismissing the idea and acting like it's not even a discussion that we should be having trivializes things. It comes off as him either claiming that rape by fraud isn't a thing, which is ignorant and wrong or so many levels, or that comics shouldn't be held to the same standards that literally every other form of art is held to, which makes him sound like a goddamn child who's upset that they've been caught misbehaving. Either way Stephen Wacker would be best advised to keep his nose out of the discussion how and give serious thought to how what he say if he does say anything.
It's nice that Dan Slott replied to you civilly though, even if he gave you the old "buy the next issue to find out!" line. Really, I think that having seen how many people are talking about the implications of any potenial MJ/Spider-Ock relationship, Slott isn't actually going to be writing one into the story despite his signature obnoxious teasing on the subject.Hopefully there's no way he could he that stunningly tone deaf on the subject of rape, especially after the similar shitstorm caused by the Chameleon/Michele rapidly-backpedalled-upon-sex-scene controversy.

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Date: 2012-12-28 06:00 pm (UTC)
silverzeo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverzeo
Didn't Oct "died" once and then came back okay? Yeah... not buying it... how awesome would it have been if it Peter, as Oct, had to turn to Harry to help him, thrusting his friend to don the Green Goblin outfit to fight Oct pretending to Spider-Man, with the Avengers backing him. And in a way: it would be ironic on so many levels. Harry finding out his best friend was his worst enemy, but actually collects himself and consider Peter as his friend above all else, realizing that Peter had gone through the pains of Harry life with him, and dons his father Goblin suit to fight a "Not-Spider-Man" for Spider-Man...
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