Date: 2013-05-08 06:35 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Hmm...I can get both sides of the conversation. Bruce is trying to do what he knows best how to do--save a life--and his grief is getting in his way. Jason, while definitely a lot more well-rounded in the New 52, still has a sore spot about the day that he died, irregardless of him surviving, and he's still reeling after the revelation the Joker gave him.

That said...that familial breakdown did feel a bit too sudden, didn't it?

Date: 2013-05-08 08:41 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
I'll say this about the DCnU. It has changed my opinion of the revived Jason a lot. This kind of scene would have been impossible with the pre-reboot Jason. He was too much the villian.

Date: 2013-05-08 09:00 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Hell, I'll go even further--despite a somewhat rocky start, I'd say Red Hood & The Outlaws have done a lot of good for those three characters and this is the best they have been in a long time.

Date: 2013-05-08 09:17 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
i agree, it started off SOOOO badyl but I really love the where those characters are right now.

Date: 2013-05-08 09:31 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I think that could be said far, far more of Roy than either Jason or Kory. Granted, there's no Lian and the like, but she was clearly never going to come back anyway because god forbid anyone a - actually have kids and b - have a decent relationship with them - and they'd really, really, REALLY run Roy through the meat grinder, prior to the reboot.

Date: 2013-05-08 07:03 pm (UTC)
neurotic_kitten: (Default)
From: [personal profile] neurotic_kitten
I can't belive I'd ever say this but I'm with Jason, Bruce is being a selfish asshole, yes his son is dead, but that doesn't mean he gets to basically abuse his other sons.

That's what I hate about how they always portray Bruce dealing with this sort of issue, he becomes this raging asshat and starts throwing punches not just at friends, but also at his children, remember when Jason first died he sucker punched Dick? Except Dick just left instead of punching him back, though if you think about it whenever the Batfamily goes through hard times you can be sure Papa Bats is gonna duck it out with one of the kids, and that is just wrong in so many levels.

Goddammit Nu52 stop it, I'm really trying to like you and you keep making this.

Date: 2013-05-08 07:44 pm (UTC)
aeka: (Kate Bishop [Hawkeye]:)
From: [personal profile] aeka
That pretty much sums up my issues with this scene. On the one hand, I do get that Bruce is not in a right state of mind at the moment and is still dealing with the loss of his only biological son--something that is indescribably hard to do as a parent.

But! Manipulating Jason into revealing the secret to being brought back to life is very cruel and insensitive of Bruce. Especially since he should be more than aware of how triggery it is for Jason to be reminded of the most traumatic day of his life. I can't say I blame Jason for being rightfully angry.

On the whole, I think it's generally a bad idea to kill a child or any significant loved one in a hero's life for the sake of drama! and to force personal growth. In Batman's case, we already know that tragedy is a big part of his origin and an even bigger part of why he fights crime. This isn't new. Why writers feel that they need to bring him back to this place in his life over and over again is beyond me, but I do know it's tiresome and seems to miss the point of why he became Batman in the first place.

Date: 2013-05-08 09:12 pm (UTC)
filthysize: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filthysize
Normally I'd agree, but I'm torn in this case. Morrison has said that he never intended to introduce Damian as a permanent fixture of the DCU, and has always planned on killing him off, putting everything back in the toy box, so to speak, when he leaves the Batman universe so other writers wouldn't have to be forced to deal with Batman suddenly having a son. That's pretty much what everyone predicted when Damian was introduced, that the "Batman has a son" thing wouldn't last long. Except it did, far longer than Morrison ever planned to be on Batman, and in the time it took for Morrison to leave, the rest of the DCU had to adapt to Damian existing. So Morrison's stuck between sticking to his original plan, which would now generate a very different reaction than if he did it five years ago, or forever be the guy who fundamentally changed Batman's status quo and then bounced.

I have a suspicion that he would've been happier if his Batman Inc was allowed to be out of continuity and that the New 52 books just ignored Damian's existence when they rebooted.

Date: 2013-05-08 09:36 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
But Morrison *also* knew that Damian was popular and was very, very well received. Other writers clearly didn't mind using him or simply avoiding the use of him in other stories, so it's hardly like the other writers were being forced into using Damian. At this point, removing Damian from the proceedings just seems to go against everything Morrison was trying to do, frankly. We've gone from the bold innovation and teamwork of Batman and Robin, and the quirky team-ups of Batman Inc to Morrison basically going 'fuck it, I can't change anything, Batman is THIS' and actively contributing to it in the worst way possible by basically lumping Bruce into the worst place he's been in since Jason's death, arguably. Other writers have arguably changed Batman's status quo and bounced, but with Morrison, he's added so much and now it just feels like he's saying 'if I'm not playing with these toys I've made anymore, no-one else can', which just feels fundamentally wrong in terms of what you should be doing as a writer for an ongoing character.

Date: 2013-05-09 12:31 am (UTC)
ablackraptor: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ablackraptor
Yeah, even though I get that Bruce is still grieving, I'm not comfortable with Bruce punching one of his other sons, even if its Jason. It reminds me of a point earlier in the Nightwing reboot right at the end of the first arc, when Bruce, from almost nowhere, just wallops Dick in the face. It almost ruined what good the arc had.

Date: 2013-05-08 07:13 pm (UTC)
skemono: I read dead racists (Default)
From: [personal profile] skemono
Didn't Jason give up all his memories in his own book? I guess this takes place before that?

Date: 2013-05-08 07:49 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
Yep, guess so, and it makes it make a little more sense now?

Date: 2013-05-11 04:32 pm (UTC)
kurenai_tenka: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kurenai_tenka
Yeah, I actually feel somewhat better about RHATO 19 with the added context. Makes a lot more sense at least.

Date: 2013-05-11 10:16 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
True, it works nicely, but Bruce pushed his second son in a real bad way then.

Date: 2013-05-11 10:24 pm (UTC)
kurenai_tenka: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kurenai_tenka
Oh absolutely, I screamed at this issue a lot, haha. But it really needed to be something huge to justify what happens in RHATO.

Date: 2013-05-08 08:11 pm (UTC)
flint_marko: (Default)
From: [personal profile] flint_marko
Yeah, the beginning of the issue says this takes place before that.

Date: 2013-05-08 09:01 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
And RH #19 says at the beginning that it takes place after this issue.

Date: 2013-05-08 08:28 pm (UTC)
perpetuity: (Default)
From: [personal profile] perpetuity
I really can't wait for Kori and Roy to find out about this. I'm not sure if that's because I want to see them cuddle Jason or because I want to see tell Bruce why this is the worst possible thing to do, ever.

Date: 2013-05-08 09:38 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Too bad that we've got another... Five? Four months of this until Bruce actively reaches 'Acceptance', based on the kind of story Tomasi's telling. I hope at the point he actively accepts Damian's gone, he starts seriously grovelling to the other Robins, too, given he's treated all of them like shit during this.

Unlikely, but a man can dream.

Date: 2013-05-11 04:35 pm (UTC)
kurenai_tenka: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kurenai_tenka
Haha, I could go for some Outlaws cuddles.

I'd really love to see them react to this and especially speak to Bruce about it, though I'm honestly not optimistic about either happening.

And to be fair, atleast for the foreseeable future, the only person to still know that this happened is Bruce.... and I really can't see him telling anyone.

Date: 2013-05-08 08:58 pm (UTC)
wake_the_dragon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] wake_the_dragon
Oh, Jason, I'm sorry.

I understand Bruce has lost Damian and is in a bad place right now, but that doesn't give him the right to take it out on his other sons. Bringing Jason here was a complete dick move, and I loved that Jason called him on it.

Though I wonder, since this is set before he gets his memory wiped in Red Hood and the Outlaws, was this the inciting incident?
Edited Date: 2013-05-08 09:01 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-05-08 09:07 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
"Though I wonder, since this is set before he gets his memory wiped in Red Hood and the Outlaws, was this the inciting incident?"

Yes. RH #19 says at the very beginning that it takes place after this issue.

And while I get what you're saying, I do think it's a little odd that Jason feels this way. I mean, yes, what happened that caused his death was horrifying, traumatic, something he wouldn't want to dwell on--but wouldn't he want to find out how he came back to life?

Date: 2013-05-08 09:22 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
that's assuming a lot though. i Don't think he CARES how he came back. What he cares about is the fact that he died horrifically (and with the recent knowledge he gained because of the Death of the Family it's all fresh in his head) and Bruce has just trudged up what is essentially his most truamatic memory for HIS personal reasons, not for anything to do with Jason's well being

Date: 2013-05-08 09:07 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Funny thing:

I've been wondering to myself if DC could ever do the Green Lantern story "Hate Crime" as an animated direct-to-DVD, replacing Kyle Rayner with Hal Jordan. I'd like to see the scene where GL to talking to the Flash (Wally) about using the Cosmic Treadmill to prevent Terry Berg from getting beaten into a coma for being gay. Batman says "We all want a day back. We can't ever take it."

So now the question is, will Bruce flat-out demand that Barry fire up to the
Cosmic Treadmill to save Damian? Which also causes one to wonder if the Cosmic Treatmill exists in the NuDC. And Barry still has memories of FLASHPOINT, presumably. Which was, you know, bad.

While "Hate Crime" would be an awesome animated DVD movie, I have to wonder if Terry Berg would be friends with Hal Jordan. Would Terry be an intern at Ferris Air?

Date: 2013-05-08 09:21 pm (UTC)
chrisdv: (Kid Flash)
From: [personal profile] chrisdv
I think it appeared early on in the current Flash series, but I might be wrong.

Date: 2013-05-08 10:03 pm (UTC)
skemono: I read dead racists (Default)
From: [personal profile] skemono
Yeah, but I'm not sure if it allows him to time travel.

Date: 2013-05-08 09:13 pm (UTC)
onceaskrull: (Batman: Damian)
From: [personal profile] onceaskrull
Yay, more Bat-fighting. Because it never gets old.

Date: 2013-05-08 09:20 pm (UTC)
an_idol_mind: (Default)
From: [personal profile] an_idol_mind
I know some would say that it would ruin the character, but I wish the mainstream Batman was more emotionally mature.

Date: 2013-05-08 09:32 pm (UTC)
leoboiko: manga-style picture of a female-identified person with long hair, face not drawn, putting on a Japanese fox-spirit max (Default)
From: [personal profile] leoboiko
but but one of the worst days of MY life

Date: 2013-05-08 10:20 pm (UTC)
elf: Strongbow from EQ Hidden Years (Facepalm)
From: [personal profile] elf
"One of," Bruce, compared to "the worst."

Just delighted to see Bruce pull "if you cared about me, you'd be willing to relive your worst trauma so the brat who hated you can come back."

I could understand "I'm putting you through this trauma to bring Damian back." I'm a lot less sympathetic about "I'm putting you through this trauma on the off-chance that maybe, possibly, you just might remember something that maybe possibly could be used on a different person who died in a different way."

Hey Bruce... I hear Etrigan knows some guys who know something about bringing people back from the dead. Maybe they'd be willing to bargain.

Date: 2013-05-08 10:05 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] omgwtflolbbqbye
I don't know what I bothered entertaining the idea, but I was hoping that the aftermath of Damian's death could be handled as a subversion of the cyclical anti-social Batman drama we've gotten so use to over the last couple decades.

I think it would have been refreshing and just as powerful to have the Batman creative team pull out the rug from under us by making it look like we were getting 'Lonely Place of Dying 2.0', but instead of using Damian's death to give Bruce a reason to push everyone around him for the umpteenth time, Bruce shows he has indeed learned from his previous hardships and instead defaults to pulling the Bat-family together so they can immediately mourn, heal, and move on in a way that makes them stronger.
Edited Date: 2013-05-08 10:22 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-05-08 11:35 pm (UTC)
neurotic_kitten: (Default)
From: [personal profile] neurotic_kitten
This so much, but TPTB probably think that an emotional mature response to a traumatic event doesn't sell as well, which is why instead we're getting "A Death in the Family 2.0 aka Let's see how much more of an asshole can we make Batman be until he finally pulls his shit together".

Date: 2013-05-09 01:06 am (UTC)
an_idol_mind: (Default)
From: [personal profile] an_idol_mind
Yeah...Heaven forbid comics show somebody dealing with loss in a positive manner.

Date: 2013-05-09 01:48 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
We are talking about the same guy who responded to losing his parents by dressing up as a bat-themed vigilante to beat up criminals at night.

But yeah, it would be refreshing to see someone deal with grief in a non-jerkass manner. After Rise of Arsenal, the Injustice: Gods Among Us prequel, and this, we really need it.

Date: 2013-05-09 01:50 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
TBF, Batman is far from the only superhero who responds to loss badly. Writers in general don't seem comfortable writing characters responding to death with anything but angst.

Date: 2013-05-10 02:49 am (UTC)
an_idol_mind: (Default)
From: [personal profile] an_idol_mind
I actually think that Batman is one of the superhero characters best equipped to handle death well. He's got a pretty massive support system, and it would be pretty cool to show that the Bat-family is a positive thing that can help Batman cope with the worst of times. It would be a good shift from the normal comic book clich├ęs.

But instead we get Batman punching one of his sons.

Date: 2013-05-09 12:44 am (UTC)
cypherfdp: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cypherfdp
"Fine, Bruce. I came back to life when a Superboy from an alternate universe punched the space-time continuum and caused massive retcons in the universe. Happy now?"

Date: 2013-05-09 08:40 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: Sad Nightwing (Sad Nightwing)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
"Actually, I could see why you'd repress THAT one... sorry Jason."

Date: 2013-05-16 09:17 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
...See, this is why I've missed this place.

Date: 2013-05-16 09:36 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (TheBlackCat Happy Terry)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Sweetie! You're back!

Date: 2013-05-09 03:19 am (UTC)
thefiretonight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thefiretonight
It's like they want me to go back to not giving a crap about Jason. Cos I can't stand Mister Daddy Issues Jason which looks like we're heading back to even tho it would be in no way his fault. Damn it, Broose.
Edited Date: 2013-05-09 03:20 am (UTC)

Date: 2013-05-09 08:23 am (UTC)
blunderbuss: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blunderbuss
Yeah, I have to say that I'm firmly on Jason's side. I really do understand Batman's desperation but he never went this far when JASON died.

And honestly asking Jason how he came back to life is a moot point because they haven't explained HOW he did that yet in this continuity, IIRC.

Date: 2013-05-10 02:44 am (UTC)
mistervader: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mistervader
Too bad Bruce doesn't have a marriage he could give up to Mephisto.

Date: 2013-05-10 01:35 pm (UTC)
kainnero: devil (Default)
From: [personal profile] kainnero
Bruce is just written better in Batman. The latest Batman issue just dealt with it better and how I think Bruce really would react.
I dropped Batman and Robin because the writing felt like being forced fed.

Date: 2013-05-11 04:42 pm (UTC)
kurenai_tenka: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kurenai_tenka
Well, I think this could actually be the most I've ever screamed at a comic that I actually liked. So kudos for that one at least.

Gdi Bruce.

Date: 2013-05-11 10:23 pm (UTC)
lbd_nytetrayn: Star Force Dragonzord Power! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lbd_nytetrayn
So was the Lazarus Pit revival just in the cartoon movie version?

Date: 2013-05-11 10:25 pm (UTC)
kurenai_tenka: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kurenai_tenka
Currently yeah. They've not clarified what it is in New52 continuity.


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