starwolf_oakley: (Default)
[personal profile] starwolf_oakley posting in [community profile] scans_daily
AVENGERS #32 in an ORIGINAL SIN tie-in, but doesn't have much to do with ORIGINAL SIN. After that Watcher's eye knowledge bomb, Captain America remembers the Illuminati mind-wiped him. He goes after Tony with some Avengers, then the Time Gem appears and sends the group into the future. This happens twice, each time with some team members getting sent back to the present.


Natasha notices the tree is hundreds of years old. Cap says he isn't a science fiction fan, and wonders if it is an H.G. Wells thing. Starbrand says there are millions of people living on the moon and an A.I, running megacities on earth.

The odd part... OK, the *odder* part is Cap saying he isn't a science fiction fan. I'm sure Young Steve Rogers liked reading H.G. Wells and Jules Verne. Then he became Captain America and started *living* H.G. Wells and Jules Verne. That would sour anyone on science fiction.

Avengers #32 - Page 6

After an anecdote about Natasha babysitting him, Franklin explains the "garden" they are in is actually a ship. Nation-states don't exist anymore and that without borders or scarcity of resources, there's little stopping humanity from traveling into space... and beyond.

Avengers #32 - Page 14

Franklin shows Avengers World and the Mecha-Avengers (MechAvengers?) that protect it. Then Hickman enters more out-there territory.

Avengers #32 - Page 16

Avengers #32 - Page 17

"You can't."
Captain America says since Earth is still there in the future, the incursions must have stopped.
Franklin says "Time isn't a linear thing limited by your perception of it." Or "Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey."

Avengers #32 - Page 19

Franklin also says Cap should ignore what Future!Hawkeye told him (we don't see what that was) but that he won't.

The Time Gem reappears and sends Cap further into the future. Natasha and Starbrand are sent back to the present.

Surprise cameo time! Sort of.


Cap is sent 50,000-odd years in the future. It seems like the further into the future Cap goes, the more it looks like Grant Morrison wrote it.

Many Marvel events revolve around the idea that Captain America can't be wrong. CIVIL WAR and AVENGERS VS. X-MEN hinge on this concept. Hickman seems to be flipping this: If Cap is wrong, billions of people will die. If Cap is right, billions of people will die. (And keep in mind, all this takes place *before* Steve lost the super-solider serum in his own series.)

Date: 2014-08-02 05:48 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] drtechnobabel
Really, Cap? You get a golden opportunity to find out what is causing the incursions, and instead you waste it trying to figure out how to stop the Illuminati. I know what they're doing is monstrous and all, but figuring out what's causing the multiverse to self-destruct in the first place should probably rank higher on your priority list, especially since stopping the incursions would (hopefully) stop the Illuminati.

Ona somewhat related note, it appears that Franklin has inherited some of his father's dickishness and ego. Then again, he is near-omnipotent, so at least the latter is somewhat justified in his case.

Date: 2014-08-02 06:09 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Really, Cap? You get a golden opportunity to find out what is causing the incursions, and instead you waste it trying to figure out how to stop the Illuminati. I know what they're doing is monstrous and all, but figuring out what's causing the multiverse to self-destruct in the first place should probably rank higher on your priority list, especially since stopping the incursions would (hopefully) stop the Illuminati.-

Multitasking, ask him multiple things!

Date: 2014-08-03 06:04 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
This. Priorities, people. Worry about the deaths of trillions of people first, then about the people trying to save billions at the costs of others.

Date: 2014-08-04 02:48 am (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
If Reed is one of the "brothers" whose death Cap is responsible for in Franklin's past, it may be less general dickishness and more well-earned hostility on his part.

Date: 2014-08-04 03:40 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] drtechnobabel
Oh, you're right... didn't think about that.

Date: 2014-08-02 06:36 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I'm sorry, but NO Marvel character with the experience of Black Widow should be going 'that's not possible' when confronted with something about as average as Old!Franklin Richards. Exactly how much has she seen in her career? That's chump change.

Date: 2014-08-02 06:59 am (UTC)
cainofdreaming: cain's mark (pic#364829)
From: [personal profile] cainofdreaming
Maybe it's more like "That's not possible... they couldn't be using that old hat again." I mean, old Franklin popping up used to be like a bi-weekly event.

Date: 2014-08-02 07:09 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Maybe she's going 'that's not possible' in terms of how many ideas Hickman is trying (and failing) to juggle.

Date: 2014-08-02 08:49 am (UTC)
obsidianwolf: 3 of 3 Icons I never change (Default)
From: [personal profile] obsidianwolf
I'm honestly amazed at how freaking bland this story line is. I find it impossible to care about anything going on in any of Hickman's titles. I mean it is clear he's trying to tell some far reaching thought provoking epic but he's just so bad at it. Morrison and Ellis even at the worst tend to be interesting at least even if it's a I can't believe they wrote something so stupid kind of way.

This doesn't even have that to me. Its full of plot holes, logical inconsistencies and bad characterization. I could put up with the plot holes and inconsistencies since as a comic fan I'm used to it. Even the really memorable epic story lines that nearly everyone has read have those if your really look but folks remember them anyway.

I just cannot see this being say Marvel's crisis. In thirty years I can't see folks ever talking about how much this mess changed everything for good or bad. I mean even in the unlikely event that this entire mess ends in a reboot of the marvel universe. I still can't see it being remembered as epic if anything it'll be the story that screwed up Marvel so much they had to reboot instead of the epic that led to the reboot.

In other words I think if anything this will be Marvel's Zero hour if it becomes anything. Something only remembered for the time a hero turned into a genocidal monster before they had to do a lot of clumsy retcons before someone salvaged things.

Date: 2014-08-02 12:44 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
This. Personally, I don't think Marvel even need a retconning or a reboot at all - it's proven to only be a relatively minor sales bump for DC and a logistical nightmare because they didn't do the smart thing and put together series bibles like they used to under O'Neill or whatever. But if this is the story that leads to a reboot? Good lord.

DC didn't even need a reboot back when they did COIE - it was a decision made to slim things down and make things more orderly and they didn't need it, given everything crept back in anyway and certain things made about as much sense as post-Flashpoint DC (i.e. Barry). Marvel is cluttered, sure, but not unintelligible in the slightest. As you say, THIS is making it cluttered. Boring unbeatable alien races who get the shit kicked out of them anyway, infinite worlds with bland characters, future bland characters, the Next Avengers? Ugh.

Date: 2014-08-02 09:59 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
stories like this are why they need a reboot

Date: 2014-08-02 10:04 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I disagree.

If Hickman keeps it up with this nonsense then they WILL, sure, but.. I hope they aren't.

Date: 2014-08-03 01:24 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
it's the characterization that they use to create the storylines that need to change, and they need to eliminate the history of those events

Date: 2014-08-02 10:33 pm (UTC)
obsidianwolf: 3 of 3 Icons I never change (Default)
From: [personal profile] obsidianwolf
Problem is a reboot wouldn't fix anything. You'd have editors, fans and writers all scrambling to keep the parts of canon that they like and you'd end up with a mess like the various DC reboots.

Date: 2014-08-02 10:13 am (UTC)
bewareofgeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bewareofgeek
Hey! It's Hickman's favorite deus ex machina!


Date: 2014-08-02 01:12 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] matrix_dragon
Ah yes, 'evolved beyond the concept of nations'. I'm pretty sure that's chapter one in 'Pretentious Sci-fi Future Nonsense For Dummies.'

Date: 2014-08-02 02:25 pm (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime
Captain America: I don't need any help with that, son.

Franklin Richards: ...Seriously? Still with the "son" crap? You've skipped several thousand years into the future, you idiot. If either of us gets called by a diminutive nickname, it's you. Also, I have the relative power of a god, so, maybe you show a little more interpersonal respect? Gah, no wonder everybody else in the Avengers thinks you're such a stuck-up prick...

Date: 2014-08-02 09:59 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
yeah, no one on the Avengers actually thinks that.

And Cap shows respect when people earn respect. That's not saying he's disrespectful in manner, but he gives people's actions and words the respect they deserve and that depends on what you're talking about and what you're dealing with
Edited Date: 2014-08-02 10:01 pm (UTC)

Date: 2014-08-02 03:08 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
How could anyone mess up the basic premise of universes crashing into each other like billiard balls so badly? The whole idea of Incursions could be so awesome, but everything Hickman's done with this is so dull.

Date: 2014-08-02 04:01 pm (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
In between a particular couple of Avengers Alliance spec ops and Tactics's basic plot, you could argue this stuff's best as game grist.

(Jonathan Hickman's Avengers books- just a sequence of unskippable cutscenes?)

Date: 2014-08-02 11:55 pm (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
Why does Cap have to ask Franklin anything? Pretty much every high-powered future version of Franklin I've seen has telepathy. He could just SHOW Cap everything relevant to the issues at hand that's happened in the last 5 millenia with an instant of mental communication, and presumably avert a lethal confrontation with his father.

But of course that wouldn't let Hickman pontificate drily for another couple of decades in this beyond-tired storyline. At least when Fraction writes this sort of thing it's entertaining to read.

Date: 2014-08-03 01:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Is any of this affecting any books that Hickman isn't writing? Like the X-Men are still hashing out their latest schism, and She Hulk and Daredevil are off being lawyers, and the FF are in court for stuff they did in their first issues ever, and so on... has anyone noticed that Hickman is writing this stuff? Not that I'm complaining if they haven't.

Date: 2014-08-03 03:21 am (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
The only place I've seen it mentioned is in INVADERS, which is written by James "Too many continuity references? No such thing!" Robinson

Date: 2014-08-03 04:12 am (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
Remember when Hickman was writing FF and it was great?


Date: 2014-08-05 03:58 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
i don't mind showing Cap being wrong... this just seems like a... bad way of doing it... it's making him out to be too much of an arrogant asshole... he may be stuborn but he almost always admits when he is wrong.


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