laughing_tree: (Seaworth)
[personal profile] laughing_tree posting in [community profile] scans_daily

"You get this strange idea from people who do a surface reading of what McKelvie and I do that it’s somehow pandering, when really what we do is tough as balls on our cast (and readers and ourselves). It’s the sort of reading which assumes that Young Avengers is about Evil Parents went it’s actually about Teenagers Fucking-Up And Eventually Realising It And Owning It. WicDiv is about fandom in many ways, but it’s not a complimentary portrait." -- Kieron Gillen

Trigger Warning: Misogyny, rape threats

Ananke agrees to do something for Tara:

Date: 2015-10-06 09:19 am (UTC)
rainspirit: (damiel)
From: [personal profile] rainspirit

Date: 2015-10-06 11:48 am (UTC)
cainofdreaming: cain's mark (pic#364829)
From: [personal profile] cainofdreaming
The awfulness aside... that's a rather curious placement for the Image symbol.

Date: 2015-10-06 12:38 pm (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
I've heard of brand representation, but this...

Date: 2015-10-06 02:30 pm (UTC)
kates: ([dw] yeah i'm bored)
From: [personal profile] kates
I'm of two minds about this issue. On the one hand, it's damn powerful stuff and hit me right in the gut. On the other hand, it's a straight white guy writing about harassment faced by a woman person of color. On the one hand, Tara-as-a-character just seems to be set up for her suicide which is kind of disappointing, but on the other hand, this is a book where everyone will die so it makes sense.

I just don't know.

Date: 2015-10-06 02:50 pm (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
Why does the straight white guy part bother you? As long as the writer does the legwork and gets the details right...

I mean Al Ewing is white as hell but he writes black characters better than damn near anyone.

Date: 2015-10-06 03:01 pm (UTC)
kates: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kates
Because so many other women/nonwhite creators have written stories about harassment, have made public their harassment and yet this is the story that gets the press and got people talking more than I've seen in a while. Granted, it is a widely read comic, but I just don't know how I feel about that.

And there's a difference between writing black characters and tackling a subject that's (mostly) unique to black people. If Al Ewing wrote a story about how people deal with the n-word, I'd feel just as iffy.

Date: 2015-10-06 03:35 pm (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
I guess at this point I almost prefer the outsiders perspective because it tends(at least in my experience with black characters) to be more balanced. Minority writers writing from their own perspective have a bad habit of mistaking their experience for the only "authentic" experience.

There is no marginalization quite like the marginalization your own people can do to you. Just my two cents.

Date: 2015-10-06 03:51 pm (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
It can be argued that Gillen is, at the very least, doing his utmost to write this so that it opens up the discussion and approaching it from the perspective of those who are victimised. If you knew nothing about him, there's few context clues in this issue to show that it was written specifically by a white male writer (although I admit I may be missing them as a mixed-race male reader).

Also, there's no humanising element to the harassers or the fans - we are seeing things entirely from Tara's point-of-view. Not a lot of writers would be brave enough to demonstrate the rawness of this kind of experience; they would give a voice to the attackers (e.g., that "Sensation Comics" arc where Wonder Woman puts her lasso on a stalker and he explains his motivation), which takes away from the representation of those victimised and provides ammo for the harassers' real-life counterparts.

So in other words, I think he's using the power he has as a popular comic book writer to tell stories that go beyond the struggles of white, straight male characters - as has been his intent for a long time now.

That isn't to say that it's not deplorable that the comics industry is still mostly allowing straight, white writers to tell this kind of story, rather than people like Tara herself. Even worse, that companies hire people who are more like Tara's attackers - see also, Marvel hiring Chris Sims to write X-Men '92.

Date: 2015-10-06 05:25 pm (UTC)
coldfury: (Default)
From: [personal profile] coldfury
I think it's uncalled for to leverage that particular example against Marvel. There's plenty of more egregious examples of people who have done and continue to do harm in positions of far more influence than freelance comics writer, especially when you factor in that the guy apologized publicly.

I understand the motivation to attack people who have done wrong, and to make them see the error of their ways, and the emotional need to punish them. But the guy has been called out, he apologized. What else do we want from him?

Date: 2015-10-06 06:44 pm (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
Maybe for starters not a non-apology apology directed to his target's husband rather than the target herself, which characterizes the harrasser as the victim with language like "thrown under the bus" in regard to his reprehensible behavior being called out?

Actually, what I want from him is for him to just go away.

Date: 2015-10-06 07:33 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
I thought Sims did do a direct apology, on his AskChris blog?

Article with the various responses

Date: 2015-10-06 08:21 pm (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
Enh, I still think it would have been far wider to approach D'Orazio in private, if he wanted to offer a sincere apology. It's good strategy in that it doesn't draw any focus toward himself. Or if the public element was a necessity he might have donated some share of his paycheck to the HERO foundation or a charity working against online harassment. At the very least he could have done any of this of his own free will instead of being forced into it because he's got a book coming out after pretending it never happened for years. Heck, Marvel could even try to soften the blow by asking her if she wants to work on a book for them as well.

Bottom line is that the bare-minimum apologies he's made cost him nothing, and he's still working on a popular comic now after having cut off another creator from the same opportunity.
Edited Date: 2015-10-06 08:22 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-10-06 10:13 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
I've always been a firm believer that if you shame someone publicly, you apologise to them publicly. Doing so in private allows you to keep whatever benefit you might have gained when you did the deed in the first place, it changes the context, sure it can be sincere, but all those people you shamed the woman in front of might never know that you considered yourself to now be in the wrong, and thats important. among many other reasons.

that being said, what he does with his money is his business, especially at this point. and anytime anyone apologises there will always be some who say they could have done more, which is another issue entirely.

Date: 2015-10-08 01:00 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Agreed. Especially as some people will sometimes foolishly try and claim it didn't happen/come to the harassers defense if they're accused/etc.. A public apology lays that to rest.

Date: 2015-10-08 12:28 am (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
If so, it was after the personal one to D'Orazio's husband she details here went over like a lead balloon:

Date: 2015-10-08 12:57 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Yep, that column mentions the later one in an update.
Edited Date: 2015-10-08 12:58 am (UTC)

Date: 2015-10-07 12:09 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] sanctaphrax
What exactly did Sims do?

Everyone, including him, seems to agree that it was terrible. But I've gone hunting for examples and I haven't found anything worse than mild rudeness. Which might mean that it was all deleted, but I've heard that Sims never deletes anything he's put online.

So it should still be around somewhere...can someone link me?

Date: 2015-10-06 08:51 pm (UTC)
redmagpie: (Default)
From: [personal profile] redmagpie
Um. I mean. That's kind of a bold statement? I agree that Gillen is a writer who puts a lot of effort into research, but plenty of people who have an inside perspective can write great accounts from that perspective. Look at Bitch Planet- there's no way that book could have the bite it has if it was written by a man.

Date: 2015-10-07 12:47 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Wtf? White people are not 'outsiders' to the racism minorities experience. Who do you think is benefiting from the racism to begin with?

Date: 2015-10-06 03:55 pm (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
This is why I've never been able to completely get into "Django Unchained". It's a fun flick, but the critical analyst in me can never stop picturing Tarantino gleefully typing as many uses of that word into the script as possible, like a kid shouting swears when the parents aren't around.

Date: 2015-10-07 12:07 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] sanctaphrax
That's not specifically a this-comic thing though. Society tends to be like that. What a straight white guy says is listened to better, even on subjects like racism and sexism and homophobia.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I'm pretty sure it isn't "straight white men never write against bigotry/harassment".

Date: 2015-10-07 12:09 am (UTC)
kates: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kates
And I never said he shouldn't be writing this. Again, it's a damn powerful issue and I think that for the most part, Gillen knocked it out of the park. It's just the straight white guy bit muddies the impact for me.

Date: 2015-10-06 02:59 pm (UTC)
kurenai_tenka: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kurenai_tenka
Eeeeh managed to hone in on the gross-out tweet, lucky me.

Date: 2015-10-06 04:00 pm (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
On the one hand, it seems unrealistic to me that attempting to perform a personal piece in the middle of a concert would inspire this amount of vitriolic hatred, with nary any kind of defence or response in published media as well as social media.

On the other, I'm not a regular reader of this series so I don't know the precise context, and just because I've never seen it happen in real life doesn't mean it hasn't, and I'm sure plenty of examples could be provided. That and the whole story's intent to explore a broader issue than music.

Date: 2015-10-06 05:16 pm (UTC)
pyynk: (pic#365294)
From: [personal profile] pyynk
Spot on that there are tons of examples of this happening in real life concerts. Dylan going electric, being the most prominent example of this.

Date: 2015-10-06 08:26 pm (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
I was more thinking of the kind of makes-you-despair-for-humanity, death-threats-and-worse response as aped by Gillen in the pages above, but I take your point.

Date: 2015-10-06 08:07 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
Keep in mind that for all the obvious parallels, the creators of the comic have been quite clear that the members of the Pantheon aren't actually musicians and their performances aren't exactly like singing. So Tara isn't just pausing in the middle of a concert to do a crappy personal ditty on a crappy guitar, she's cutting the audience off in the middle of literally divine rapture to play a song that she wrote. The audience aren't just reacting as entitled fans, but also as people who just got cut off from the greatest high of their lives.

Date: 2015-10-06 08:29 pm (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
That does make a little more sense. I sympathise even more with Tara now, come to think of it - what exactly is the point of being a god if all your worshippers are fickle junkies? Seriously, this crowd is worse than the average Marvel comics citizen.


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