alschroeder3: (Default)
[personal profile] alschroeder3 posting in [community profile] scans_daily
I was rereading SAM WILSON: CAPTAIN AMERICA #1 and a question occurred to me...


(This same panel was reprinted in an earlier SCANS DAILY entry so I'm not posting anything new from that issue...



samwilson1


...How long has Sam Wilson's identity as the Falcon and the new Captain America been public knowledge?

Date: 2015-10-25 02:01 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
... huh, good questions. I have no idea.

Date: 2015-10-25 02:12 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] aperturedreams
They had some regular people refer to him by name in the previous series All-New Captain America, so I'm guessing since the beginning.

Date: 2015-10-25 01:34 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] aperturedreams
Sorry, I meant the beginning of his reign as Captain America. But I'm not sure when the shift happened during his Falcon period.

Date: 2015-10-25 03:14 pm (UTC)
sagrada: Clan sigil of Rahab (Default)
From: [personal profile] sagrada
"The reign of Samuel L. Wilson as Captain America of Earth and Her Dominions began in the 21st century, when he took the throne from Steven рей Rogers..."

Though judging by how superhero comics are proceeding, that might actually be a good forecast of what Captain America will be in the future.

Date: 2015-10-25 03:11 am (UTC)
lyricalswagger: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lyricalswagger
According to Marvel Premiere #49, in 1979, his identity was revealed as part of being tried for his "Snap Wilson" crimes.

link to google books citation

Date: 2015-10-25 03:18 am (UTC)
lyricalswagger: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lyricalswagger
It's also included here, in a blog by the author of the book cited above:

review of All-New Cap #3
Edited Date: 2015-10-25 03:19 am (UTC)

Date: 2015-10-25 04:16 am (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime
Sooo... are we going with the Snap Wilson identity being true or a false implant?

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/01/14/retconning-the-snap-wilson-retcon-in-all-new-captain-america/
Edited Date: 2015-10-25 04:16 am (UTC)

Date: 2015-10-25 04:27 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
I posted some stuff a while back about "Snap Wilson" being real, but a creation of Sam because he was angry at the world over the deaths of his parents. The Red Skull didn't "create" Sam Wilson, he set him free.

http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/4774963.html

Date: 2015-10-25 04:47 am (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime
...Okay, seriously, it's crap like this that makes me hate older comics sometimes. These aren't character-building, or stories that layer on top of one another. This is writers clumsily going back on one another and producing a giant mess.

At this point, I don't even care about Sam Wilson ever being a street tough in his youth, because guess what? It was a tired trope then, and it's an even more tired trope now. Oh right, "cliche," that's what that's called.

Date: 2015-10-25 05:16 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tianyulong
I think the first Falcon Cap run states that Snap is just something the Red Skull made up to discredit him. It seems like Marvel can't make up it's mind on this issue.

Date: 2015-10-25 05:38 am (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime

Indeed. Thus my issue.

Date: 2015-10-25 06:32 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
I'm not sure what you guys mean by "first Falcon Cap run," but any 'Snap was fake' retcon happened WELL after the one in that link. The history of the character since the introduction of Snap is basically 1. Snap is the real personality, who got turned into Sam by cosmics, 2. Sam became Snap through life experiences, but cosmics reverted him to Sam, 3. Snap was a lie made up by cosmic tampering. So it's just writers moving steadily further away from Snap being the real deal, not some back and forth game like you're saying.
Edited Date: 2015-10-25 06:59 am (UTC)

Date: 2015-10-25 08:30 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
Well, 'Snap' wasn't a lie per se as much as a personality created by the Cosmic Cube.

Date: 2015-10-25 05:52 am (UTC)
randyripoff: (Falcon)
From: [personal profile] randyripoff
...Okay, seriously, it's crap like this that makes me hate older comics sometimes. These aren't character-building, or stories that layer on top of one another. This is writers clumsily going back on one another and producing a giant mess.

I think you're being too harsh. Much like today--especially at Marvel which didn't have any sort of solid editorialship back then--many writers and artists threw stuff at the wall to see what would stick.

Snap Wilson was a terrible decision by Steve Englehart at the time, but there really wasn't anyone to tell him that it would be a bad idea. It's entirely likely that he was either editing himself or the editor of the comic was just too busy to think it through.

Nowadays, IMO, editors are mostly toothless and the lunatics are running the asylum. I seriously doubt that many of the editorial changes being made at Marvel or DC are really being carefully considered in terms of the long run. Instead we have characters "die" for a six months to 3 years or so in hopes that it'll spike sales or draw the nonexistent "casual" comics buyer.

I seriously doubt the average comics buyer actually really wants to see Sam Wilson as Captain America or a Superman without a secret identity--at least not for very long--but that's what we get because of the need to shake things up, rather than simply focusing on telling the best stories possible.

Anyway, enough codgering from me. Most of Englehart's run on the title was pretty doggoned awesome, and it's a shame that it's remembered for this one misstep.

Date: 2015-10-25 06:46 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
"I seriously doubt the average comics buyer actually really wants to see Sam Wilson as Captain America or a Superman without a secret identity--at least not for very long--but that's what we get because of the need to shake things up, rather than simply focusing on telling the best stories possible."

I think asking whether fans want something is the wrong way to approach it. I doubt any fan wanted, say, the X-Men to be replaced by an all-new all-different international team, or Swamp Thing to be revealed to not really be Alec Holland. The question to ask is whether you, as the writer, can tell a story that will *make* the fans want it.

Modern Marvel's willingness to, as you say, shake things up might sometimes backfire, but I'm glad of it because it means the creative teams can take risks, which is what so many now-classics were born of.

Date: 2015-10-26 01:28 pm (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
In those cases in particular, the fans voices were unimportant, as the only fan input that counted was SALES, something the X-Men and Swamp Thing had never been able to muster large quantities of, prior to their invigoration by new talent. Folks may forget that X-Men had not been regularly published for years when Wein remade them and then had it tossed to those guys who worked on Iron Fist; it was a low-risk gambit on an unsuccessful title that no one anticipated would become the comic to eventually dominate the line. Likewise no one expected that this obscure British writer mostly famous for some Captain Britain comics and some weird stuff about space malls would become the writer to take a minor horror title and kick off a change at DC resulting in a completely different imprint dedicated to mature titles.

Marvel is throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks. What the sales support determines what will continue. That's why a title like Ms. Marvel continues as if little happened after Secret Wars, while some titles completely change.

Date: 2015-10-25 08:36 am (UTC)
philippos42: heather (vindicator)
From: [personal profile] philippos42
Well, I'm probably more interested in this book than I would have been in a new Steve Rogers series, so I have to admit it kind of works.

Date: 2015-10-25 08:41 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
"Anyway, enough codgering from me. Most of Englehart's run on the title was pretty doggoned awesome, and it's a shame that it's remembered for this one misstep."

That's not restricted to his run; usually, when a creator makes a perceived mistake, most good will is silenced by distaste and negativity (I.E., the scientist that landed a probe on a comet whom was bullied over wearing a provocative shirt, Joss Whedon's hate mail from his treatment of Black Widow, Bungie's launch of Destiny, Sonic the Hedgehog's string of good games being almost forgotten over 'Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric', etc.).

Date: 2015-10-25 03:21 pm (UTC)
sagrada: Clan sigil of Rahab (Default)
From: [personal profile] sagrada
That shirt was the agent of a foreign power. If NASA scientists were loyal they wouldn't need to be shamed to tears over their anti-Americanness.

Date: 2015-10-25 01:26 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
-Instead we have characters "die" for a six months to 3 years or so in hopes that it'll spike sales or draw the nonexistent "casual" comics buyer. -

Using death as a temporary shuffle-off is annoying. If someone is gonna come back so soon, don't *kill* them in the first place!

And there's so *many* things one can do for a temporary shuffle-off. Drop 'em in another dimension, send 'em to another country, give them an injury that'll take a few years to recover from. or what have you.

-I seriously doubt the average comics buyer actually really wants to see Sam Wilson as Captain America or a Superman without a secret identity--at least not for very long--but that's what we get because of the need to shake things up, rather than simply focusing on telling the best stories possible. -

I'm fine with Sam-Capt as long as they're interested in writing him. In no way is him being there in any way an inhibition to the writers telling their best stories.

And shaking things up, keeping them fresh, is *part* of storytelling. Now, how well it's done varies, but change is a big part of a story.

Date: 2015-10-25 01:58 pm (UTC)
jkcarrier: me, at my old office (Default)
From: [personal profile] jkcarrier
I'll give Englehart credit for balls, at least. Speaking as someone who was reading the comic at the time, the "Snap" revelation blew my 12-year-old mind. "Everything You Know Is Wrong" plots were a lot less commonplace back then, especially for well-established characters. And right after hitting the readers with that bombshell, Englehart left the series...talk about a "drop the mic" moment!

On the other hand, yeah, it pretty much wrecked the Falcon as a viable character. He's like Hank Pym and Donna Troy rolled into one; every attempt to "fix" him just muddies the waters more.

Date: 2015-10-28 02:51 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
All the times the X-Men have a "Charles Xavier did a bad, bad thing" retcon are similar.

Date: 2015-10-25 05:44 am (UTC)
randyripoff: (Butterworm)
From: [personal profile] randyripoff
I'm not aware of any official "outing" but it seems as if Sam's not attempted to maintain any sort of "secret" identity since the mid 1970's.

Date: 2015-10-26 03:24 pm (UTC)
burkeonthesly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] burkeonthesly
Since Registration, maybe? When pretty much all the heroes' secret identities became a matter of public record?

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