NS: Why Dr. Strange's Ancient One is a woman

[lucean]

I just wanted to share this writer explanation as I honestly found it kind of hilarious. So, as some of you may be aware, there has been some dislike about the fact that Tilda Swinton was cast as the Ancient One in Dr. Strange, as the character in the comics was a Tibetan man. The interview can be found here: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/27/world/asia/china-doctor-strange-tibet.html?_r=0

It is a really interesting summary of the interview. Something that baffled me in it was that the writers argument about the Ancient One being an oriental stereotype is true, but what I continue to struggle with is that if they decided to change the ethnicity of the Ancient One because of that, why did decide everything is Tibetan. So in an attempt to avoid racial sensitivity, they decide to have a white person have teach another white person to be the bestest magic while dressed in Tibetan clothes in a Tibetan building surrounded by Tibetan people in Tibet.

The comment that killed me, though, was how insulting the writer considered casting a Chinese woman to act a Tibetan character.

Comments

(frozen comment)

[long_silence]

I pretty much lost all hope for this movie when they cast the most milquetoast mayonnaise whitebread actor they could find for Stephen Strange.

The Marvel movies are practically printing money, they could have cast an actor of literally any ethnicity and it wouldn't change the character at all, and they'd still make bank. And they still went with the safest option possible.

And then they chose Tilda Swinton for the Ancient One and I knew I'd made the right decision not to watch this movie.

Say what you will about the DC movies but at least they're taking a chance with Gal Gadot, Jason Momoa and Ezra Miller

(frozen comment)

[commodus]

Okay, disagree with the casting if you want. But why is the actor suddenly fair game to be insulted on their skin color?

[md84]

I almost feel sorry for the people who have to make casting decisions. I'm sure most of them have good intentions, but they have to deal with their own prejudices, the prejudices of their superiors, and the prejudices of their target audiences.

If it were me, I'd just stick with using an old Tibetan guy so I could at least claim that I'm just being true to the source material if someone tries to call me out on it (and I say this as an Asian American).

I also think it's kind of hilarious that their attempt at racial sensitivity ended up playing into the old 'Mighty Whitey' trope.

[lucean]

What continues to confound me is that they could have easily avoided the Mighty Whitey trope by not just having it take place in Tibet. Or if Tibet was the difficulty, there are a lot of countries that neighbor that area, such as, I don't know, Nepal?

[md84]

I guess it's because the Oriental trappings of Doctor Strange's origin were considered too important to the character to ditch, but for some reason they were adverse to casting an actual Asian actor.

Is it weird that the The Shadow movie from 1994 did a better job with casting? They at least had Asian actors Brady Tsurutani (even if he is Japanese instead of Tibetan) and John Lone (even if he's Chinese instead of Mongolian) portray the Tulku and Shiwan Khan respectively. TBF, they also had Tim Curry playing an American.

Now that I think about it, it's also a bit weird that a 1994 movie based on a 1930's pulp fiction series had more named major Asian characters portrayed by Asian actors than the entire series run of Firefly and Serenity despite that series being set in a verse that's half Chinese.

[lilacsigil]

Yeah, I think they really, really don't understand the objection to the entire Orientalist premise and are trying to get around it by changing the trappings but not the story. If they had understood, there wouldn't be faceless mystical ninja hordes in the Netflix Daredevil series, either!

[lissa_quon]

Oh HAH - I was thinking of The Shadow film today when folks were complaining about Strange.

Yea its a tad hilarious that The Shadow movie did a better job handling casting. That film also had the scientist exposition guy who was also an asian dude. Like a well to do asian dude - they could have probably made him anything but nope Asian dude.

I mean I happen to like that movie but usually I don't think "oh how progressive it was" - until now I guess. Welp so much for improving with time.

[silicondream]

I guess it's because the Oriental trappings of Doctor Strange's origin were considered too important to the character to ditch

Hell if I know why. Strange's style of mysticism doesn't have much of anything to do with Buddhism or Taoism or anything, and the Ancient One's other student was a dude from Transylvania. They could have the Ancient One based out of Manchester and it would make just as much sense.

(frozen comment)

[bizarrohulk]

Be interesting to see if long_silence's comment gets a Mod Note ...

[freezer]

Much like The Mandarin, the Ancient One was pretty much a no-win. Change the character, you're whitewashing. Portray the character faithfully, he's one "Confucius Say" away from the whole "Mysterious Oriental Stereotype" bingo card.

I find it interesting that, as least to my perception, more nerds have been up in arms about this than of the whole ScarJo/Ghost In The Shell incoming fiasco. At least, I haven't seen the think pieces and YouTube videos defending Swinton-as-The-Ancient-One yet.

[lilacsigil]

Yeah, this kind of no-win situation is why I think they should have retooled his origin. "Arrogant surgeon can no longer operate, learns magic" does not have to involve mysterious oriental stereotypes. And they could involve Asian characters in other roles, to get past the whitewashing issues.

(frozen comment)

[bj_l]

Of course it won't.

[bj_l]

And where's the link to the producer (or was it director?) who explained a few days before this that "nope, the Ancient One is not Tibetan because we'd really like to see this movie do well in China, thanks"?

[owlbrigade1]

Then it is erasure of other cultures.

Sometimes you just have to roll with it and accept the realpolitik of the situation and acknowledge Real Life[trademarked] is inherently full of problematic stuff. I think they did the best they could in squaring the circle. It was either do this or do not use the character, and the same group who have been screaming about the problematic problems are the same ones who were demanding the character show up.

[sadoeuphemist]

??? Very little that happens in Dr. Strange corresponds to Real LifeTM. The Ancient One is not a remotely accurate portrayal of Tibetan culture and mysticism, that's precisely why it's offensive. Frankly, they seem to have taken the worse of both worlds, by keeping the pseudo-oriental mysticism, while at the same time denying an employment opportunity to an Asian actor.

[sadoeuphemist]

Was anyone really complaining about the Mandarin? I was under the impression that it was pretty well received, aside from the 'it's not accurate to the source material' folks.

[cainofdreaming]

Next: Amistad remake with all white cast to avoid stereotypes.

(frozen comment)

[long_silence]

I don't think I was insulting his appearance. I was pointing out that Hollywood prefers casting actors with whiter and lighter skin tones, and that gives Benedict Cumberbatch, who's paler than a ghost, an unfair advantage over actors of color who will never even be seriously considered for the roles he's just handed because of his lack of melanin.

But hey if using hyperbole to describe his yogurt like complexion is going to get me a Mod Note then fine by me.

(frozen comment)

[commodus]

You WERE insulting his appearance, and you've done it again.
You are clouding this legitimate issue of whitewashing with these bizarre insults, designed to body-shame not just him, but an entire race of people, for genetic features which they cannot change.
Can you please stop doing it?

(frozen comment)

[long_silence]

In what way was I insulting his appearance? I was comparing his skin tone to arbitrary objects, in no way did I say it was a bad thing that he himself is pale skinned nor did I say it made him unattractive.

And these "genetic features that he cannot change" offer him privilege and opportunities greater than those available to most other races of people. I am not trying to bodyshame him or other white people. I'm just saying that the pale skinned ideal of beauty is bullshit and extremely harmful to society as a whole, and Benedict Cumberbatch benefits from it greatly.

[cygnia]

If I recall correctly, Dr. Tam was one of the Shadow's actual agents in the pulps.

[janegray]

The comment that killed me, though, was how insulting the writer considered casting a Chinese woman to act a Tibetan character.

Why would that kill you? It makes perfect sense.

China has been doing horrible, horrible thing to Tibet. And in fact, the article you linked to outright says that the real reason they changed the race of the character was that they didn't want the movie to be banned in China.

It turns out that the filmmakers wanted to avoid the Tibetan origins of the character altogether, in large part over fears of offending the Chinese government and people — and of losing access to one of the world’s most lucrative film markets, according to one insider account.

China is so determined to erase Tibet as its own country with its own people and colture, they would ban a movie for having a Tibetan character in an important role. They absolutely would.

If I were Tibetan, I'd be infinitely more offended by the idea of changing the race of a character from Tibetan to Chinese than from Tibetan to white.

[janegray]

Probably because ScarJo is a very beloved actress. Even those who hated the whitewashing and loudly complained about it, often prefaced their comments with "no offense to scarJo" or "I get why ScarJo accepted the role but."

Swinton hasn't had the chance to build up a loyal following with her excellent portrayal of a popular character in the best selling and most critically acclaimed movies of the entire MCU, and with her cool interviews that flipped the bird to sexist reporters. So people are far less willing to protect&forgive her.

[dr_archeville]

I believe they have changed the setting to Nepal -- I know it was filmed in Nepal -- to avoid the "we can't show this in the Chinese Film Market if it's got lots of Tibetan stuff in it" thing.

(frozen comment)

[commodus]

I'm not in the best state of mind at the moment. So I won't address your first comment.

But as for your comment about white privilege? You're absolutely right. He DOES benefit from it, as do all of us white people. And I will admit that, despite how highly I rate his work, he is over-saturated in the media at the moment.
In general, I think the whitewashing issue could have been averted if they skipped the origin. The cosmic/mystical side of Marvel is weak, in general. Far better to just throw us in, explain elements of Strange's story throughout, and avoid offending thousands and thousands of cinemagoers.