Date: 2017-02-15 07:11 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface

Date: 2017-02-15 07:30 pm (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
"Now kiss."

Date: 2017-02-15 07:38 pm (UTC)
tigerkaya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tigerkaya
Bah, RogersxRosenthal all the way.

Date: 2017-02-16 08:26 pm (UTC)
lamashtar: Shun the nonbelievers! Shun-na! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
But StevexSam is totally canon!

Date: 2017-02-21 01:34 am (UTC)
tigerkaya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tigerkaya
Sure it is same people that claim Spider-manxPsylocke is real, its never going to happen except in fanfics.

Date: 2017-02-15 07:46 pm (UTC)
mizerous: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mizerous
This always makes me laugh.

Date: 2017-02-15 07:11 pm (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
The Marvel Universe is an utterly terrifying place. Seriously no matter which version of events is "true", Cap or Helmuts, something utterly fucked up still happened to one of them or both of them.

Whats it got to be like living in a world where you know not only is that possible, but it has happened before and maybe to you?

Date: 2017-02-15 07:31 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
"Either something VERY strange is going on, or I've finally lost my mind, or both."

Date: 2017-02-16 08:27 pm (UTC)
lamashtar: "It's just like Hitlers!" (Hitler)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
Its like listening to Psycho Pirate in the cell next door and realizing he's the only sane one.

Date: 2017-02-15 07:43 pm (UTC)
tigerkaya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tigerkaya
And so the bullshit continues, I could use a glass of cyanide right about now. Just end it already Spencer I'm not going to read Falcon Cap, Miss America or Daniella Cage Cap. I'm sure there great characters but there not what I'm interested in reading.

Date: 2017-02-15 09:45 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] aperturedreams
What do Miss America or Danielle Cage Cap have to do with Nick Spencer? They're not remotely related to his titles.

Date: 2017-02-15 10:11 pm (UTC)
coldfury: (Default)
From: [personal profile] coldfury
I can think of only one thing those three characters have in common, and it's not Nick Spencer.

Date: 2017-02-15 10:38 pm (UTC)
ext_3679: (Default)
From: [identity profile]
There's also 2099!Cap but I don't think we've talked about her here because she's only shown up in books written by He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Posted.

Date: 2017-02-16 12:22 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Roberta Mendez is great though.

Date: 2017-02-15 11:45 pm (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
I'll be generous and assume the question is, "Who are... Captain Americas who aren't Steve Rogers or Bucky Barnes or John Walker?"

Date: 2017-02-16 12:20 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
A) Thsee are scans of Steve's book, not Sam's

B) America Chavez and Danielle Cage!Cap have nothing to do with Spencer's books, so why did you mention them?

C) Why is it that you only singled out the patriotic heroes that aren't white?

Date: 2017-02-16 08:33 pm (UTC)
lamashtar: My crap writing senses are burning! (crapwriting)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
Enh. I read Bucky Cap because I liked the writer at the time and I knew Steve would be back eventually. Falcon Cap and Dani Cage Cap are also acceptable. John Walker and America Chavez are too irritating to read even as substitutes.

Date: 2017-02-21 01:38 am (UTC)
tigerkaya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tigerkaya
I find Falcon Cap too much of a supporting character in his own book. As to Dani Cage Cap not very impressed, she's too much like her father for my taste a brick who has no style and looks redundant with the shield.

Date: 2017-02-16 06:45 am (UTC)
outlawpoet: (Default)
From: [personal profile] outlawpoet
Man, Nick Spencer just hates all continuity, doesn't he?

Quite aside from this continuing Cap travesty. Helmut Zemo knows exactly what kind of man his father was, in his best recent series: Born Better, he travels in time and meets all his ancestors to take their measure as men, learning a lot about the myths he grew up with about his family.

Date: 2017-02-16 08:07 am (UTC)
outlawpoet: (Default)
From: [personal profile] outlawpoet
Sure, but the idea is that Zemo accepts Cap's story because he didn't know his father. Since Zemo did know his father, via time traveling Steve doesn't know about, why would he listen to Cap about this?

Date: 2017-02-16 11:22 am (UTC)
outlawpoet: (Default)
From: [personal profile] outlawpoet
Sure, but there is an implied economy of changes. If Cap's argument is Zemo was de-aged to separate him from his good father, there is a father to be separated from. Zemo secretly traveled to the past, him being de-aged doesn't accomplish what Cap suggests it does, Zemo met him as a younger man in a way Cap doesn't know about.

If Cap's argument is that he's from a parallel universe of strangers, whose history bears no relationship at all to Zemo's experiences, why focus on Zemo's age? Why suggest there is a lie or deception to be revealed, if all the changes are arbitrary and go back throughout all history perfectly with no gaps?

It's more consistent if you assume Nick Spencer wrote this without that history in mind, and is positing the simpler case that Zemo never knew his father, and Cap is playing on that uncertainty, and a reader who hadn't read Born Better would probably assume that to be the case.

Date: 2017-02-16 08:51 pm (UTC)
outlawpoet: (Default)
From: [personal profile] outlawpoet
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Cap says Zemo was made younger to take away his relationship with his father.

Why does making him younger matter if Heinrich has simply been replaced in history by a different person? Surely if you can simply fake Zemo's entire life, his age is immaterial.

Date: 2017-02-17 07:11 am (UTC)
outlawpoet: (Default)
From: [personal profile] outlawpoet
Cap suggests that something is wrong, changes have been made to Zemo's life. He claims that Zemo should be able to see that none of this makes sense.

This implies that whatever has made those changes has made a few changes to the world, leaving the rest the same, leaving evidence or inconsistencies. He claims Helmut Zemo was made younger to separate him from his father, who was a good man. This only makes sense is Heinrich is still a good man, but in the past, where Zemo can't meet him. Zemo's birth date is changed, preventing him from doing what he did during the war, but he grows up to be mostly the same person, and the rest of the world continues normally. Zemo and Cap can go, find the clues of the changes or lies that have been told, and re-discover the truth.

This makes sense if Zemo has not traveled to the past and actually met his father. Hence my assumption that Born Better isn't being taken into account. The previous theory scans fine, and doesn't require Cap or Zemo to mention anything.

If BB is still true, Cap's argument requires instead all of history is changed, Heinrich was actually replaced with a monster, the Nazi's are bad guys when they weren't, Helmut is a completely different person etc etc, there is no point in this conversation. The changes are arbitrary. Why make him younger to separate him from his good father? His father doesn't exist anymore in the past either, making him younger changes nothing. He'd grow up with a monster for a father either way.

Also it makes Cap's plan meaningless. Zemo can't realize anything if he's the product of a totally different history with no gaps. He's not the man Cap believes he remembers, he's just a stranger with the same name.

Date: 2017-02-17 08:33 pm (UTC)
outlawpoet: (Default)
From: [personal profile] outlawpoet
Zemo does appear to buy it, and in any case, Nick Spencer defended the logic on twitter a few days ago.

My problem with the idea Zemo was de-aged and his dad made more evil is that it's not what Cap appears to suggest.

Helmut's old character arc is that while he knew his father and family as a child and believed in the myth, he wasn't actually involved with him very much. He was a normal engineer in Germany, not associated or involved with Heinrich when he died fighting Captain America. He took up the mantle on that understanding as revenge. He didn't even inherit his tech or organization, he had to re-invent Adhesive X and rediscover his father's old strongholds and techniques. He believed his family was in the right because he grew up believing that, but didn't know very much about his father as a man.

This argument from Cap plays right into that story. It makes sense, and doesn't require a whole alternate history. Maybe Zemo doesn't buy it and is just planning on betraying Cap anyway, maybe not, but I see no reason to suspect subtlety on the part of Nick Spencer.

Born Better complicates this, because that's when Zemo learned his father wasn't a good man, speaking directly to this argument, you can invent reasons around this (Heinrich is changed as well to be evil, Zemo's memories are specifically faked to include a trip to the past but he didn't really go there, Zemo's entire personal history and memories is fabricated) but they don't fit very well with Cap's argument, and he doesn't mention them, and Zemo doesn't say anything to require it. Hence my assumption we're working off Zemo's old arc and ignoring BB.

The irony is that BB actually could make this book more interesting. If Cap says Zemo doesn't know his father was good because his close relationship with him was stolen, he can object he knew very well who his father was during the war, he's traveled through time and seen what HYDRA did. Cap has too, maybe he can talk about how travelling through time now takes him to a past he doesn't recognize anymore, or engage with the mechanics of what he thinks has happened.

Obviously this means the book would be a conversation, in which we might learn things about Zemo or other current HYDRA characters, rather than a giant unbroken monologue from a character we know will be reverted anyway.

Date: 2017-02-16 04:35 pm (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
Somebody let me know when Spencer has Cap completely break the fourth wall, look the readers directly in the eye, and insult them for not understanding and appreciating the genius of the story he's in, m'kay?

Date: 2017-02-16 08:37 pm (UTC)
lamashtar: Jesus Troll (jesustroll)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
I'm getting a strong "this is a reverse of that time Red Skull captured Steve and told him his life story" feeling from this.

...That was my favorite bondage scene of all time. As a child, it had a major effect on me.


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