[personal profile] history79 posting in [community profile] scans_daily

"Batman isn't interesting because he has a cool car. It's great that he has a cool car. But he's interesting because he straightens the world out. And he brings order to a very chaotic world. Especially when you're a child. You need somebody, even if it's a fictional character, to tell you that the world makes sense and that the good guys can win. That's what these heroes are for."

- Frank Miller

17 pages of 52

Date: 2017-02-26 04:25 pm (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
Ugh, this is so Right-Wing it's painful. The bits with Carrie's parents are especially cringe-worthy...

Date: 2017-02-26 04:39 pm (UTC)
ovaltinepatrol: Chairman Kaga from Iron Chef (Default)
From: [personal profile] ovaltinepatrol
Her parents reminded me of the "He's hip, he's cool, he's 45" sketches from Kids in the Hall.

Date: 2017-02-26 06:21 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Especially with how pro-Reagan the story is.

Date: 2017-02-27 12:08 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
Not sure if sarcastic, but considering that Reagan's the guy who's ordering the hero of the story brought in and later provokes a nuclear war, I find it really hard to read the story as "pro-Reagan."

And that's downright nuanced compared to the brutal Nixon parody Miller worked into Elektra: Assassin.

Date: 2017-02-27 01:10 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Yeah I was being sarcastic.

Date: 2017-02-27 01:28 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
Heh, sorry!

Date: 2017-02-26 07:35 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jeremyp
Am I remembering correctly that eventually Batman wants to actually hook up with Carrie? It's been a long time since I read it, but I remember being grossed out at the time.

Date: 2017-02-27 12:03 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
You're not.

Date: 2017-02-27 01:06 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
Honestly, what's painful to me is how much there's an attempt at balance here, when later works (certainly Miller's later works) seem to have all but abandoned that.

Sure, Carrie's hippie parents are such irresponsible nitwits that she's essentially an orphan without being orphaned; sure, the attempts to make the Mutants see sweet reason with anything other than force are laughable and doomed; sure, "due process" and "civil rights" are here basically synonyms for "lame objections to Batman being awesome"; and sure, Dr. Wolper is the caricature of the uppity intellectual that conservatives love to trot out, twisting logic and reason into knots to subvert the obvious need for more forceful law enforcement.

But Wolper is also Frederic Wertham wearing a funny wig, and Wertham was no civil-rights champion. The Reagan of this story is about to order Batman locked up, and well on his way to leading the country into nuclear war-- the mere fact that such a clearly addled man hasn't been removed from office is a stinging indictment of those around him. Chuck Brick's constant smile as Reagan's mouthpiece, as he blithely excuses an almost libertarian lack of action or commitment, at least feels like it's SUPPOSED to be as ridiculous as anything Wolper says.

One bit not included here involves Gordon talking about FDR and the Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge conspiracy theory, and how he ultimately could not decide whether FDR letting Pearl happen would be right or wrong, just as he couldn't decide whether he should condone Batman's actions or not. Of course, no decision is a decision, and Gordon's entire life story makes it clear which side he chose. Even so, there's a lot more nuance there than I think justifies an easy label.

These days, "left-wing" and "right-wing" seem more meaningless as terms than ever. And even the crusty modern-day Miller, who's a lot more difficult to defend and has made no secret of his Islamophobia, came out in support of Clinton in the last election.

Date: 2017-02-27 08:31 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Has Miller done anything regarding Islam that Ennis hasn't already done on Christianity? I know he opposes Trump's Muslim ban.

Date: 2017-03-02 12:07 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
Well, Holy Terror was pretty much "Dark Knight Strikes Again Batman vs. generic Islamofascists made to represent the whole religion" and even the Kryptonians in DKIII have more than a whiff of Muslim caricature to them. Ennis' ideas about Christian iconography are pretty weird, but I don't think he tended to demonize the believers.

Date: 2017-03-02 01:20 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
The terrorists in Holy Terror were Al-Qaeda, which is an actual terrorist organization who you might have heard of it. Also the word "Muslim" or "Islam" isn't used once in the entire comic.

Ennis has done everything horrible he could probably think of including a graphic rape scene of the Virgin Mary. If Miller had done something similar with Mohammad raping one of his underage wives people would have a fit and chances are he'd have to be under protection.

Date: 2017-03-05 11:51 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
I don't much like it when Ennis goes in for pure shock value. I'm not familiar with the scene you describe but it sure sounds like something he'd do. And you're right that if anyone tried that sort of thing with Muslim iconography, they'd be baiting a fatwa. But how does that really prove anything? Ennis is offensive, so no one else can be? Ennis and other writers really can't do to Christians what Miller did to Muslims when addressing a Western audience, because Western audiences know too much about Christianity.

Miller repeatedly stated that he knew nothing about Islam and didn't care to, and proudly described Holy Terror as a work of propaganda. I think it's fair to say he was hoping to evoke more "Captain America punching Hitler" than "George Takei being taken to internment while passing a 'Slap a Jap' poster," but if you're not careful about your targets, you get more of the second than the first.

I'll admit that Holy Terror never definitively states "1.2 billion Muslims are all as bad as those who flew into the Twin Towers," but it really does not do anything much to distinguish between the two either. And yeah, the comics Miller was hearkening back to rarely indicated there were any good Germans or Japanese, but we like to think we've evolved since then. Miller may find Trump ridiculous (which I've seen him say in interviews), and he may oppose the ban (which I haven't), but there's a straight line from Holy Terror to the ban, whether he thinks so or not.
Edited Date: 2017-03-05 11:53 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-03-05 03:10 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
In regards to the ban, look at his twitter.


He retweeted Hillary's statement on the matter.

Date: 2017-03-05 07:30 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000

Date: 2017-02-26 07:08 pm (UTC)
commodus: (Default)
From: [personal profile] commodus
Honestly, I never understood why Miller was so lauded. It takes zero effort to transform Batman into a Dirty Harry-esque vigilante.
He never understood the character, or the nuances of him. Honestly, I think all Miller ever saw when he looked at Batman was someone who punched bad guys. And that's why he ends up becoming a mouthpiece for Miller's own personal politics and prejudices.

Date: 2017-02-26 07:36 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jeremyp
Well said! It is crude, simplistic and reactionary.

Date: 2017-02-26 07:52 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
I remember when BTAS paid homage to this issue.

Edited Date: 2017-02-26 07:53 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-02-26 10:57 pm (UTC)
reveen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] reveen
Who the hell brings a gigantic belt fed machine gun to a home invasi-

No, no... don't have the tween girl hug the naked old man ew! EW!

Date: 2017-02-27 03:39 am (UTC)
empgonzo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] empgonzo
This may just be my imagination, but is one of those talking heads Matt Murdock?

Date: 2017-02-27 03:47 am (UTC)
lamashtar: Daredevil as Godzilla (Darezilla!)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
Miller did used to write Daredevil! And it is a lawyer.

Date: 2017-02-27 01:10 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
The one thing I never understood about this story was the "I believe you" bit. The story makes a huge, HUGE deal out of Batman's code against killing, a code he ultimately sticks to with the Joker at the last minute (leading the Joker to kill HIMSELF just to get back at Batman). That's in Book Three, well after the kidnapping scene. But it sure looks like... I mean, there's no way the pink-dressed mutant could've survived that, right? I just don't know what to make of it.
Edited Date: 2017-02-27 01:11 pm (UTC)


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