Date: 2017-02-27 06:23 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
This is certainly one way of getting rid of the evil-Amazons thing!

Date: 2017-02-27 07:08 am (UTC)
byc: (Default)
From: [personal profile] byc
There was never a bee weapon? My god.

Date: 2017-02-27 07:09 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Oh, no, the bee weapon is unremovable canon.

Date: 2017-02-27 03:24 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] locuatico
as it should!

Date: 2017-02-27 02:04 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
This is so spiteful towards previous writers, I would normally consider giving this writer the side eye.

But given that the previous writers insisted on portraying a diplomatic, science-loving, openly and unapologetically feminist society that volunteered to offer aid to men but refused to take any abuse from them as GRRRRRRRRR RAPE AND BUTCHER MALES MURDER BABIES FEMINAZI MISANDRY MISANDRY MISANDRY mess straight out of MRA tirades... I think I'd rather send him a gift basket instead.

Date: 2017-02-27 07:33 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
I am normally against erasing prior writer's work, but the problem in this case was the prior writers had basically made a big chunk of the character's background unusable/a trap to use.

If it was merely bad, I'd say 'fix it and use it'... ala how Gail pretty much repaired the Amazon's Attack damage. But here, yea, Rucka gift basket.

Date: 2017-02-27 11:08 pm (UTC)
luxshine: (Default)
From: [personal profile] luxshine
Wait, does this mean that the whole "Daughter of Zeus" thing is also retconned? She's back to be a clay baby made by Hippolita??

Oh, JOY! I can buy Wonder Woman again!

(And do totally add to Rucka's gift basket. When's the next con he'll be to so we can give it to him?)

Date: 2017-02-28 02:51 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
I hope so but am not sure on the origin part.

Date: 2017-02-27 11:47 pm (UTC)
korvar: (Default)
From: [personal profile] korvar
how Gail pretty much repaired the Amazon's Attack damage

I'm a little out of the loop - how did Gail fix that? It seemed pretty unfixable when I read it!

Date: 2017-02-28 02:44 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Kept 'em out of the way for awhile, had Hippolyta return non-evil, and then had them save the day against an alien invasion of the cities they attacked.

Granted, not a complete fix. It still feels like we should assume mind control for the event itself (with Granny Goodness and Circe both involved it really, really feels like a mind control story).... but 'showing up to save the day as penance for being used as pawn by evil' would at least repair in-universe image.

Date: 2017-02-28 01:45 am (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
This is a ridiculous exaggeration of what was actually on the page.

Date: 2017-03-01 08:39 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] strejdaking
“Can you smell it, sisters? Our air be putrid with musk.”
“Aye, what hangs between the shanks now fouls my nose.”
“Perhaps I shall take my blade and separate the offence from the offender. Leave them to shrink and wither on the sand.”

Date: 2017-02-27 07:52 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] philippos42
Hm.

Well, that's one way of simultaneously acknowledging and trashing every writer's Amazon stories.

Date: 2017-02-27 12:19 pm (UTC)
jeyl: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jeyl
Oh, nonono. Just 'one' writer's Amazon story. Just one.

Date: 2017-02-27 01:23 pm (UTC)
tugrul: That Chest (Default)
From: [personal profile] tugrul
Yeah, everything post-reboot. Everything pre-reboot still happened in the previous universe.

Date: 2017-02-27 11:14 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
Except the Nu52 universe is the same universe as Post-Crisis Earth, except Doctor Manhattan futzed it all up for... reasons.

So technically it all happened in this universe too, until it didn't.

Date: 2017-02-27 03:15 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] locuatico
that sound you hear is me dancing over the grave of the Nu52 Wonder Woman run

Date: 2017-02-27 05:28 pm (UTC)
cosmos666: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cosmos666
And nothing, absolutely nothing of value was lost.

I have a theory that the snake bit venom was preventing Diana from using the lasso effectively. Once she bled the venom out, the lasso went into overdrive and resulted into her breakdown.

Date: 2017-02-28 07:04 pm (UTC)
deh_tommy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
Except for Cliff Chiang's cool designs.

Date: 2017-03-01 01:40 am (UTC)
cosmos666: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cosmos666
Chiang's work wasn't the thing everyone had a problem with. He could have worked with anyone.

Date: 2017-02-27 10:42 pm (UTC)
bj_l: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bj_l
Am I the only one who enjoyed reading Azzarellos run? I enjoyed his Wonder Woman run far more than Morrison's Superman or Snyder's Batman (and Ive just read a really enjoyable Dick as Batman book by Snyder and I normally love Morrison), admittedly I only started reading it in trade last year for the library, so not contextless scans, didn't pay a cent for it and completely read all New 52 as alternate reality except Green Lantern and Tomasi's Batman stuff. And, no, its not the only Wonder Woman I've read.

Loved Cliff Chiang's art, too.

This, however, is incredibly compelling and well done. I love Rucka writing Diana. I'm glad he came back.

Date: 2017-02-27 11:49 pm (UTC)
korvar: (Default)
From: [personal profile] korvar
The basic problem is what Azzarello did to the Amazons. They went from a peace-loving group to people who raped, murdered and enslaved as a core part of their society. A lot of people aren't sorry to see that go.

Date: 2017-02-28 01:43 am (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
Azarello was just taking the amazons back to their mythological roots, for better or for worse. Considering the New 52 was supposed to be a completely clean slate, I think it was a valid choice.

Date: 2017-02-28 02:30 am (UTC)
korvar: (Default)
From: [personal profile] korvar
A version of their mythological roots. But very much not the Amazons as seen in the original Wonder Woman comics - in fact, the utter antithesis of them.

And the main problem is that Wonder Woman - who is supposed to be a very moral upstanding person - comes from a society that is utterly evil. I didn't read enough to find out if this was really touched upon, but it'd be like finding out that Ma and Pa Kent were members of the local Klu Klux Klan. How moral and upstanding would you expect Superman to be then?

There are also versions of the mythological roots that don't involve the rape and murder, which could easily have been used.

Date: 2017-02-28 03:08 am (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
How utterly evil they are is debatable I think, especially as it's not TOO far into the run that you find out they have not in fact been murdering all their male children, they were instead sent to be raised by Hephaestus.

To me though it's ultimately about whether or not the stories were good. And they were. Azzarello's run was easily the best since Rucka's first go. Were the changes to Wonder Woman's backstory necessary for those stories? I'd say adding Zeus as her father was, for sure. That's key to the overall arc. The dark traditions of the Amazons... it's hard to say. I think I'd have to reread it to say for sure, though the fact that I say that makes me think that it probably wasn't.

Your point about the Kents... I kind of get? But with Themyscira being a totally alien society, I have a hard time drawing the parallel. Regardless, I don't think any part of canon should be sacrosanct. The quality of the story should always come first.
Edited Date: 2017-02-28 03:11 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-03-01 01:49 am (UTC)
cosmos666: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cosmos666
they have not in fact been murdering all their male children, they were instead sent to be raised by Hephaestus.

Oh, using their male children as chattel to trade for weapons has another name now.

Your euphemism make it sound like they were been sent to boarding school and not being used sold.

Date: 2017-02-28 01:44 am (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
Azarello and Chiang's run is still in my top 5 all-time Wonder Woman runs. Honestly it's probably 3rd or 4th, I'm not sure I can come up with a 5th.

Date: 2017-03-01 01:43 am (UTC)
shadwing: Psi SW2 Game Card (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadwing
No you aren't the only one, I loved the Azzarello Run, I also loved Greg's original run and Gail's and I also have a fondness for the Perez era.

But I love them all for different reasons. And I loved them for being well written stories and different takes on Diana, I think Azzarello left Diana in an interesting place a place where she...and the Amazons could grow INTO that ideal society we see later on.

If ANYBODY crapped on Azzarello's run I'd say it was the Finches more than what Greg has done here.

Date: 2017-02-27 11:16 pm (UTC)
bradygirl_12: (steve--diana (love))
From: [personal profile] bradygirl_12
Thank the Goddess for Greg Rucka.

Date: 2017-02-28 02:27 am (UTC)
tigerkaya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tigerkaya
I love it reminds me of Avengers Forever, retconning the garbage out and leaving it in the panels of history as a mere footnote.

Date: 2017-02-28 03:52 am (UTC)
lascoden: Anarky (Default)
From: [personal profile] lascoden
So, what exactly now did not happen, or whatever? Like, what did this actually erase?

Date: 2017-02-28 04:21 am (UTC)
lamashtar: Shun the nonbelievers! Shun-na! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
Seriously. Like, did Diana date Superman or not? /joke

Date: 2017-02-28 04:52 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
She did date Superman.
Y'know, until he exploded.

Date: 2017-02-28 05:53 pm (UTC)
lamashtar: Stripper in spartan outfit (This..is...Spartaaa!)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
..This needs to be memed.

Date: 2017-03-01 01:46 am (UTC)
shadwing: Psi SW2 Game Card (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadwing
I think that is still being explored on what is canon and what is not. It's implied that the "Year One" issues by Rudka/Scott is the 'true' origin of Diana and everything else is the influence of someone/thing who may be Dr Manhattan or something else.

I'm a bit disappointed.

Date: 2017-02-28 06:58 pm (UTC)
deh_tommy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
I was hoping this run wouldn't fall into the old Wonder Woman trap. For whatever reason, whenever a new run comes along, the writer(s) tend to try and write the definitive Wonder Woman book whilst simultaneously wiping out anything the previous run did.
For example,
-Wonder Woman is an Amazon born from Hippolyta.
-Actually, she's a clay sculpture blessed by the gods with flesh and blood.
-No she's not, she's actually the product of a secret affair with Zeus.

I'm also a bit saddened that people here are actually celebrating this, since... well look, I can completely understand why one wouldn't like Azzarello/Akins/Chiang's tenure; as much as I like that series, there were some really big problems (like the Amazons, the plodding pace, the unnecessary change to Diana's origin, that whole 'this is the real story' thing I mentioned, etc.), but I think that's really unfortunate to sweep everything under the figurative rug as just being 'an illusion' and effectively not mattering at all. I'm guessing next that Ares never *really* trained Wonder Woman, or that the New 52 Greek Pantheon were actually evil impersonators/tricks/etc., and we'll get the 'real' ones soon - but I'm sorry, I felt Ares was just so bland and generic in Year One (especially compared to the one two years prior).

As unrealistic as this sounds, I was hoping this run would have tied EVERYTHING from Wonder Woman's past together like the Rebirth one shot implied. I was hoping we could have been able to cherry pick the best bits, combining the strengths of all with the weaknesses of none. Just once, I was hoping we could have avoided this 'scorch the earth and run' mentality; instead, this just seems to be yet another 'that previous book was wrong, this is what REALLY happened' story. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed 'The Lies', especially the parts with Cheetah. I'm just a bit disappointed, is all.

Still, I'm not as annoyed as I thought I was going to be, mainly because the Finch's work effectively undid almost every development made under Brian Azzarello.

(Minor nitpick: wasn't there another Amazon that left Paradise Island from 'Superman/Wonder Woman'? Was she a lie too, or did she never go home either?)

Re: I'm a bit disappointed.

Date: 2017-02-28 07:29 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] long_silence
Hessia was the one from Superman/Wonder Woman. There's currently a miniseries about her adventures set in the past collecting Amazons from around the world to bring back to Themyscira. Odyssey of the Amazons.
So unless it ends with her failing to return them all home, I'm not sure how it fits in with what Rucka is doing here.

And then there's Donna Troy over in Titans. When they were showing off their new Titan's Tower a few issues ago they mentioned using Amazon technology in their stealth plane.

Re: I'm a bit disappointed.

Date: 2017-03-01 07:35 am (UTC)
deh_tommy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
I know, that's why I said "I'm not as annoyed as I thought I was going to be, mainly because the Finch's work effectively undid almost every development made under Brian Azzarello".

Re: I'm a bit disappointed.

Date: 2017-02-28 07:53 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
-Wasn't there another Amazon that left Paradise Island-

No-one remembers Exoristos...

Date: 2017-03-01 08:42 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] strejdaking
Can anybody explain to me how Azzarello shitting on Wonder Woman's entire mythos is somehow okay, but Rucka doing it to him isn't? Love his run or hate it, he doesn't deserve special treatment.

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