Date: 2017-03-11 12:09 am (UTC)
balbanes: (Default)
From: [personal profile] balbanes
I'm a little annoyed that no one ever seems to remember that the Russian submarine had just fired nukes at Magneto. Granted that was after Magneto had issued some world ultimatum or other, but it's not exactly maniacal to sink the sub that's attacking you with friggin nukes.

Date: 2017-03-11 01:48 am (UTC)
mastiff: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastiff
It's not exactly maniacal to defend your country from an incoming WMD either. Magneto's exact threat to ALL the governments of the world was:

"You have seven days to cede me total political control, or I will end life on Earth as you know it!!"

After he safely redirected the missiles with a thought, he sank the sub, then immediately destroyed the city with magma.

It's really hard to see how anyone is being unfair to Magneto by not mentioning the nukes.

Date: 2017-03-11 02:01 am (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
The sub gets mentioned more because no one actually died in Varykino - Magneto deliberately slowed the eruption so there was time for a complete evacuation.

It's still a dick move - the survivors just lost their homes and livelihoods - but they're still alive, which is more than the crew of the Leningrad could say.

Date: 2017-03-11 02:15 am (UTC)
mastiff: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastiff
That's where the art doesn't quite match the words. It definitely says he slowed the flow of the magma to allow a mass evacuation, but the art shows a bus thrown up in the air and people scattering from the explosion.

Even without casualties though... if the Twin Towers had received warning about the planes on 9/11 and been evacuated before the impact, I can't imagine people would have shrugged off the attacks as no harm/no foul. I get the feeling this was a no-so-subtle retcon, where only a military target was destroyed; ie. foreign soldiers, not "real" humans.
Edited Date: 2017-03-11 02:16 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-03-11 02:38 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] mindsweeper
This is the Marvel universe where evacuation of people and destruction of only property is frequently treated as not a big deal.

Date: 2017-03-11 04:46 am (UTC)
lamashtar: "Wolverine does not appear in this issue" (Wolverine not appearing in this issue)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
Well, there is a difference. Killing soldiers is part of war. Killing civilians is a war crime. The idea that women and children and old people could be protected was the point of making that fine line.

When assymetric groups choose to live with the most vulnerable? There's a lot being said with that act. Proud things like "I am not a nation-state but I make war with one" and the not-so-proud "I make families human shields". Of course, in RL families are in safe zones and it used to be a violation of security to let out their addresses/phone numbers (lowest classification: Confidential, but still classified). Maybe they only cared at bases where they trained people in beginning operational security, I dunno.

In superhero books, that is the reason for the secret identity. If the identity is known? The families are either constantly targeted, or they're right there at ground zero in the hq where any major attack on the group would happen. So possibly the "you put your own family in danger" doesn't apply.

Then you got the arguments of "does an assymetric agent like Magneto get the benefit of being treated as a soldier of a nation-state and thus, can only be punished the way a defeated nation's soldier is treated" or is he a civilian, and therefore murdered some soldiers because it suited his personal agenda?

Date: 2017-03-11 05:55 am (UTC)
mastiff: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastiff
Yeah, direct analogies with superheroes are always troublesome, because there's no direct comparison in the real world. You've brought up some great questions though.

Magneto declared war when he threatened to kill humanity if they didn't give him complete control over all nations; ironically, he started this because he was worried someone might someday use a nuclear weapon.

Now, if the US had threatened to nuke Russia if they didn't give up their entire nuclear arsenal and their sovereignty by the end of the week... I don't believe things would have ended well. Retaliation of some sort would be expected. But he's not a nation, is he? He has no fears of retaliation because he doesn't actually have a territory to protect.

To your asymmetrical argument, Bin Laden's first strikes on America were the USS Cole bombing, which resulted in casualties, and a truck bomb detonated in the WTC, which did not (edit: I was wrong; six died). He was a well-known terrorist before 9-11, with an international price on his head. Targeting soldiers on the USS Cole was still murder, even if he considered them invaders.

So I suspect Magneto would be treated the same; he's not a soldier, he has no means of diplomacy or normal nation-state relations, or even formally declaring war. There's no bilateral talks or negotiations. In the end he's a terrorist who picked the entire world as his target.
Edited Date: 2017-03-11 06:01 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-03-11 05:51 pm (UTC)
lamashtar: Shun the nonbelievers! Shun-na! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
Good point. Its hard to make the argument that you speak for a people when you're known for crime rather than leading peaceful people. Maybe thats part of why the US has the feeling it is important for civilians to always be in charge of the military. Without peaceable consent, there is no difference between being a leader or being a captor. Nations that feel the need for a Strong Man leader always seem to be those most abused by their past leaders. They think people need abuse to be led. :(

They did try to do Magneto as head of nation later, I believe, in the Genosha era? I'd quit reading by that point.

Date: 2017-03-12 02:32 am (UTC)
mastiff: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastiff
Yep, that's exactly why a civilian leads the military in the US; it's like the old saying, "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". The civilian is intended to decide whether a situation needs a military solution, not just plan one out.

Date: 2017-03-11 01:55 am (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
Well said. If Magneto had simply sunk the sub full of combatants then he would have been seen as a guy who was engaging in a war against military forces. Instead he ups the stakes by murdering hundreds of thousands of people...including, statistically, quite a few mutants in the process. Not to mention the damage done to the Soviet Union's environment hundreds of millions of dollars of damage. I get how Claremont pushed Magneto to the side of the angels and it works as a long running storyline, and I liked it. But you can't just white-wash his horrific war crimes.

Date: 2017-03-11 02:33 am (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
I agree, the nukes don't matter, because they were never a threat to Magneto. Even if he hadn't just threatened all life on Earth, destroying the sub wasn't self-defense, because A) it posed no threat to him, and B) he could easily have disabled it without killing anyone.

Date: 2017-03-11 09:06 pm (UTC)
balbanes: (Default)
From: [personal profile] balbanes
Really? You don't see a difference between "I killed a guy" and "I killed a guy who was trying to kill me"?

Date: 2017-03-12 02:39 am (UTC)
mastiff: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastiff
A guy walks into a bar with a shotgun, and demands everyone hands over all their possessions or he'll kill every last one them, then hunt down their families and do the same. A security guard pulls a gun, but misses the shot. The intruder blows his head off.

Would you summarize this situation as self defence on the intruder's part?
Edited Date: 2017-03-12 02:42 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-03-12 03:16 am (UTC)
balbanes: (Default)
From: [personal profile] balbanes
A nuke is a pistol?!

Here's the actual scenario: a guy makes a global threat, which may or may not be an act of war. A sub responds by firing nuclear missiles, which is *definitely* an act of war. The guy sinks the sub, which is also definitely an act of war.

Magneto and the (then) USSR were at war. And in war, killing active combatants is completely kosher.

Date: 2017-03-12 11:29 pm (UTC)
mastiff: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastiff
Nope, a nuke is not a pistol, but I assumed you knew that when you brought up the defense "I killed a guy" vs "I killed a guy who was trying to kill me". Unless your example meant "I killed a guy" vs "I used my magnetic superpowers to kill all the guys in the submarine who shot nuclear weapons at me after I threatened to destroy the world". If that's what you actually meant, you may want to avoid analogies in the future.

If Russia ever says, "All nations must hand over all their nuclear weapons and give us complete executive control over their governments by next Friday; or we will unleash every nuclear weapon in our arsenal"... yes. Yes, that would be declaring war.
Edited Date: 2017-03-12 11:36 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-03-13 12:04 am (UTC)
balbanes: (Default)
From: [personal profile] balbanes
You seem to be confused as to what an analogy is. "Killing a guy" is exactly what Magneto did (x size of crew) "That was trying to kill him" is, again, exactly what those guys were doing. Omitting less revelant details does not an analogy make. Given your confusion, you may want to avoid analogies in the future.

Date: 2017-03-13 03:14 pm (UTC)
mastiff: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastiff
Just going to keep glossing over the fact that the soldiers were the ones defending their country from a WMD? Sure.

Date: 2017-03-13 09:45 pm (UTC)
balbanes: (Default)
From: [personal profile] balbanes
I'm not glossing over anything. You chose to be a pedant, so I reciprocated. You are also evading MY argument with some juvenile point about who's to blame. I'm not putting white hats on anyone; I'm saying that the sub's attack is relevant, and thus omitting that fact is highly misleading.

In other words: Magneto sinking a sub that just attacked him is quite different than Magneto sinking a sub that was minding its own business. If you think otherwise, then explain how they're equivalent.

Date: 2017-03-11 12:12 am (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
Well, sure, when you look at his history, I can see where you might mistake Magneto for a mass-murdering mutant supremacist, would-be world conqueror, and career supervillain... :)

Date: 2017-03-11 12:12 am (UTC)
informationgeek: (lyra)
From: [personal profile] informationgeek
Holy crap does the artwork tank in quality at some parts.

Date: 2017-03-11 01:03 am (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
She really does, doesn't she? I suppose it's due to being a dancer?

Date: 2017-03-11 01:49 am (UTC)
ovaltinepatrol: Chairman Kaga from Iron Chef (Default)
From: [personal profile] ovaltinepatrol
The sound effect from her suffering a pratfall could make for an extra powerful laser.

Date: 2017-03-11 02:27 am (UTC)
sarahnewlin: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sarahnewlin
Havok's face when he blasts the just so funny to me.

Also Rogue's foot seems to morph into the plane controls in that one panel.

Date: 2017-03-11 04:02 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Havok looks like Bogdanove is drawing him in that panels

Date: 2017-03-11 10:37 am (UTC)
bizarrohulk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bizarrohulk
Sending two guys in power armour and another wielding metal weapons to arrest Magneto doesn't strike me a particularly well thought-out plan.

Date: 2017-03-11 03:16 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] astrakhan42
Oh hey, it's Gremlin-as-Titanium Man. I think he gets blown up by Iron Man during Stark Wars (aka Armor Wars) right after this story.


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