Date: 2017-03-22 03:04 pm (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
Erm, science is about testing hypotheses and gathering evidence.

Date: 2017-03-22 03:06 pm (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
"Hm, I've hypno-perved my way into a comfortable consultancy...should I use a psuedonym, since my birth name is synonymous with a two-generation career of international crime, not to mention one of the world's most famous parables about a man doing a deal with the devil? Eh...nahhh, it'll probably be fine. What are the odds of some pointy-headed person waltzing into my life and offering me stuff?"

Date: 2017-03-22 05:48 pm (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
I thought that guy in the flashbacks looked a lot like Faustus... guess now we know the connection. :)

Interesting how Madame Hydra is getting the gang back together with Faustus, Viper, and Arnim Zola.

Date: 2017-03-22 05:52 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Though if she doesn't like people thinking Hydra is racist, i really question picking Zola for her council.

Date: 2017-03-22 07:16 pm (UTC)
tugrul: That Chest (Default)
From: [personal profile] tugrul
There's also Hive, the Kraken and Gorgon, but I guess they are newer characters.

Date: 2017-03-22 06:35 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
So.. Standard new villain comes in and schools the old crowd nonsense? Or is this an older character in the Madame Hydra costume?

Date: 2017-03-22 06:41 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Depends on what you mean by "old character". She is part of Hydra Cap's new history and has been around since the 40s.

Otherwise, yeah. She's a new character for this story arc.

Date: 2017-03-22 06:46 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Blegh. One of my least liked tropes invoked again, then.

Date: 2017-03-22 07:16 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
In this case, she's a character created because Kobik messed with reality. Not this character has secretly always existed.

Date: 2017-03-22 10:09 pm (UTC)
freezer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] freezer
I assume that's the trope [personal profile] mrstatham meant: Remember The New Guy.

Date: 2017-03-23 01:49 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
But isn't that for guys like the Sentry? Who we are supposed to believe have always existed.

Elisa was created when Kobik altered history. This seems like a different trope all together.

Date: 2017-03-23 02:25 am (UTC)
freezer: (Objection!)
From: [personal profile] freezer
The effect is the same: The new character is portrayed as being known by established ones, personally or by rep.

And we really don't know if Elisa existed prior to Kobik's manipulations.

Date: 2017-03-23 02:29 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Not really, no. Since only Steve remembers her or knows of her. So no, the effect is not the same and neither is the cause.

And yes, we do know that she didn't exist prior to Kobik's meddling. Her appearing in the present was a reveal showing that what Kobik did wasn't just a mind wipe like everyone thought, but straight up altering reality.

Date: 2017-03-23 06:43 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
No, more the standard 'brand new villain comes in and schools everyone', cliche. The kind that usually ends with either the new villain blowing a hero or older villain's brains out to show how bad they are/that they really mean business.

Date: 2017-03-23 03:58 pm (UTC)
freezer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] freezer
AKA: How to introduce a new X-Men/Batman villain. Gotcha!

Date: 2017-03-25 10:17 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
I don't see how that's a bad thing. Makes sense for the new threat to be worse than the old one.

Pretty much how Shonen Anime work.

Date: 2017-03-22 07:18 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
What? How can you possibly not like this character coming in and effortlessly defeating Viper, a woman so mad even the Red Skull couldn't manage her?
Why are you not scintillated as she lectures these villains and gets them to work for her for dubious means?
You clearly just don't understand New Villain!
*stomps out of room and slams door*

Date: 2017-03-22 07:35 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Elisa has super strength, so it's not impossible to see why she could defeat Viper. Viper is a regular human.

Date: 2017-03-23 12:53 am (UTC)
superboyprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superboyprime
No, no, thehood, don't you get it? The actual logic of power levels don't come into it. Viper's a bigger character, so she needs to be superior. New character have to pay their dues, as if they were real people, because reasons.

How can you be a true comic fan if you can't follow "Batman always wins because he's Batman" logic??

Date: 2017-03-23 01:56 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Yeah.

Plus Eliza's power explains how Hydra can become a big enough threat in Secret Empire. Part of it anyway, the other being Hydra Steve.

Date: 2017-03-23 01:18 pm (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
What is Elisa's power? I don't have a problem with this particular version of 'new character comes in and everyone falls in line' given the Kobik angle and the fact that Spencer has been building her up to some degree for over a year, now.

However, if there isn't some reason all these disparate and dangerous characters aren't actively working to undermine her or take over, then the story really needs to explain why (and that's not a criticism, just a thought; I haven't read it so I don't know if it is or is going to be addressed). Hive probably wouldn't, but people like Gorgon, Viper and Zola would be jockeying for power almost immediately. Taskmaster and Black Ant just want a paycheck.

Date: 2017-03-25 10:24 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
She has some sort of Eldritch power. Least going by what we've seen in the flashbacks in this issue.

So it would seem she's far above most of the people on this council.

Edited Date: 2017-03-25 10:38 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-03-23 12:49 am (UTC)
superboyprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superboyprime
That the answer to your question would make a difference is such an alien thing to me. You're far from alone in this thinking, of course. Back during the heyday of Geoff Johns' JSA, you'd see posters on DC's boards calling a 'new' villain dumb but then when told that the new guy was actually an obscure, old character Johns pulled from history, they'd suddenly appreciate it. Because that changes things, apparently?

Comicdom's glorification of old vs. new... I just don't get it.

Date: 2017-03-23 06:39 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I can see what you mean. It's not so much that I have an issue with new villains, really - I'm more just not particularly fond of brand new ones accumulating a power base as arguably huge as this so quickly, really (I mean, seriously, the only way this could be more OP for a Hydra leader is if she suddenly resurrected Baron Strucker yet again and made him bow), because I feel there's so little justification for it, whereas if this were an old Madame Hydra, I guess I'd have less of an issue. But I don't particularly have a problem with new villains. One of the only pluses from Spider-Man's Brand New Day era were the new villains and characters introduced overall, IMO - it's just a shame not many of them stuck.

Date: 2017-03-23 07:04 am (UTC)
superboyprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superboyprime
She's been slowly built up for the past 14 issues, if that makes any difference. She's not suddenly showing up doing this.

Also, these guys are working with her, not for her. Together, they're going to be a new Hydra High Council under Steve Rogers.

Date: 2017-03-23 01:52 pm (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
Ah, that makes a significant difference...I knew she was being built up, but if she's recruiting them to be a new High Council, that's different than 'you shall serve me!', which I could deal with, but her recruiting them to join her rather works better, IMHO.

Date: 2017-03-22 11:55 pm (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
Sebastian Fennhoff was Johann's father.

Sebastian, Johann. Johann, Seb-

.. Johann Sebastia-

.. well played.

Date: 2017-03-23 11:00 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
I get that it's a Bach reference, but I'm not sure what else the reference is meant to be. Care to clue me in?

Date: 2017-03-23 11:05 am (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
That's it, really.

Profile

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