Date: 2017-04-03 03:52 pm (UTC)
flint_marko: (Superior in every way.)
From: [personal profile] flint_marko
lol at Jason Aaron having Xavier lick Wolverine's hairy asshole in his dying moments

Date: 2017-04-03 05:14 pm (UTC)
draganoche: Dreams define Reality (Default)
From: [personal profile] draganoche
It is really out of character to have Xavier go 'the children are our future'?

Date: 2017-04-03 05:33 pm (UTC)
flint_marko: (Superior in every way.)
From: [personal profile] flint_marko
It feels more like he's talking about Logan running the school and how important what he's doing is than he is talking about young mutants in general.

Date: 2017-04-04 01:50 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
Well, running a school is what Xavier spent the most meaningful part of his life doing. This one may be named after Jean Grey, but there's no doubt it's his legacy.

Date: 2017-04-04 03:05 am (UTC)
flint_marko: (Default)
From: [personal profile] flint_marko
It still feels pretty obnoxious and heavy-handed. Jason Aaron basically had everyone praising Wolverine like he was the greatest guy ever, except for the strawmen that he knocked down.

Date: 2017-04-04 11:53 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
I really don't see it. Almost everyone in the book (like Deathlok the last issue and Iceman not long before that) points out repeatedly that Logan is practically AWOL as a headmaster, yet because he is a headmaster, he can't really play the "cool lone wolf" card any more either. The only one who really seems to think he's the bees' knees is Quentin Quire, because Quire works so damn hard to deny it. The rest of the kids act like he just dropped in from another planet.

The stories don't treat him as the greatest thing ever either-- he fails spectacularly in the first arc and only gets to keep the school because the forces trying to destroy it get in each other's way and then Quire decides to get off his ass and save the day. A few issues later, he tries to solve the school's money problems by going with Quire to the Planet of the Gamblers, again fails completely and gets his skeleton rearranged for his trouble, while Krakoa solves the original problem with virtually zero effort.

It would be in character for Xavier to say something here like "It's in your hands now, James, but don't ever let them tell you you can't do this. I always knew you were more than a mere animal." But instead, what we get is "Keep that school open. That school, those children, will one day save us all." They're the ones Xavier is praising.

Date: 2017-04-04 03:30 pm (UTC)
flint_marko: (Superior in every way.)
From: [personal profile] flint_marko
I don't know, that stuff just feels like making Wolverine the underdog. He's still propped up as a great guy running a great school, not an incompetent headmaster doing a crappy job.

And the constant patting on the back is amplified by how Jason Aaron uses strawmen to bash his critics, like when he had the nun complaining online before Doop smashes her laptop, or the redneck Mudbug saying how Wolverine was cool when he stabbed people but now he was just a sissy.

Date: 2017-04-05 08:28 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
If the object of the game is to find some scenes in Wolverine and the X-Men where the title character gets to feel good about his life choices, then mission accomplished, but I wouldn't characterize the frequency of such scenes as "constant patting on the back." More like occasional wins. And that's kind of how it usually works: the lead feels overwhelmed and like an underdog for some or most of the time and then we get a cathartic moment where they turn things around until next time. There are other kinds of story rhythms possible, of course, but superhero comics, and especially the Big Two, don't often deliver them.

At what point does criticism of a lead character stop being strawmanning? I think you're probably right that the nun from the Doop issue is a little bit of wish fulfillment (though if roasting Internet trolls is wrong, I don't want to be right). But I pointed to Deathlok and Iceman for a reason: it's not just the bad guys who are due for a smackdown who think Logan's in over his head. This was the premise of the series from day one: pulling Logan out of that thing he does that he's the best there is at and putting him in a role where he really has to struggle.

Logan is indeed shown as a great guy (his love for children has ever been his most admirable quality), and the school has a certain greatness to it, but I don't think he's ever shown as being particularly great as a headmaster himself (except maybe in the far future when he's had decades of practice). The main reasons the school might succeed are (1) a lot of people passionately want it to, to the point where the teachers are willing to work like a graveyard-shift hospital staff to make it happen and the students are not really very rebellious; (2) Xavier set up a good basic model to follow and (3) there is literally no competition; the other options for students are to go to a school for normals and hope that works out better for them than usual or go to Cyclops and get conscripted. Which I guess feeds into point 1.

Even that first scene you quoted... sure, Logan gets the last word and gets to be shot from below by a tilting camera with the others standing around him, but what is he actually saying? It essentially seems to be "I know I'm ridiculously unqualified to do this, but these young people need someone to try and don't have anyone else, so the only important thing in my life is serving them." That's relatable if you're a parent, but it's a far cry from "I'm awesome and everything I do is awesome and anyone who thinks I'm not awesome is jealous, but hey, who wouldn't be jealous of someone this awesome?"

Date: 2017-04-03 04:45 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
see.. I have always wanted to love Edie. but I can't because her portrayal has been that of a self hating automaton. on the one level, she is a walking cry for help everyone is ignoring, on the other hand, she is a wide eyed Pollyanna that never has growth... I just can't with her... and it's not the character's fault... it's the writing.

Date: 2017-04-03 05:49 pm (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
She is actually a lot better now. The current writer decided that "hey maybe being religious doesn't have to be a negative character trait. and she is interesting now. Watching her trying to grow and be true to her religious beliefs despite the numerous times religious figures have screwed her over in the past is interesting.

Date: 2017-04-03 05:51 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
yeah. that's what I wish they had done with her before. THAT is the Edie I wanted to read about... where does this start?

Date: 2017-04-03 06:17 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
So basically it's a retread of Rahne's character arc?

Date: 2017-04-03 07:08 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Exactly. Only different because... Jim Shooter isn't running the show this time?

Date: 2017-04-03 07:58 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
More optimism, less self-loathing, less lesbianism.

Date: 2017-04-04 01:26 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Lesbianism? Like, "Claremont lesbianism" or "Something on panel that implies Rhane is gay" lesbianism.

Date: 2017-04-04 11:10 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Rahne always struck me as one of the less "sexual orientation ambiguous" Claremont characters.

Certainly she was attracted to Sam, Berto, Doug, Hrimhari the wolf-prince and Josh Foley at various stages, but don't recall any particular feelings for any of her female team-mates.students. (even her mindlink with Dani when in wolf form never felt that way as depicted)

Admittedly I didn't read much of her in the PAD X-Factor, so I might be missing a string of definitive examples on the matter.

Date: 2017-04-04 12:17 pm (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
Rahne has been identified as many things, but I don't recall lesbianism ever being in the mix. She's had a bunch of heterosexual crushes and relationships, but it's never been even implied that she was otherwise. Claremont has his share of ambiguously or obviously gay characters (depending on what was allowed at the time and change of authorial intent), but afaict the only thing someone might have gotten from Rahne in that regard was her hair style might have been viewed as butch? I've never heard it suggested that she was homosexual.

In fact, speaking of PAD's run on X-factor, Rahne was in heat for Havok. Yeah, that was as awkward as it sounds. But again, very solidly sexually attracted to Havok, not Polaris. I mean, it's possible I'm biased, as I had a solid crush on Rahne as a character at age 13, but you know.

Date: 2017-04-04 12:36 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Yeah, I deliberately didn't mention Havok because of the whole "Genoshan conditioning tying into her canine sex drive" being a little to weird. IIRC Her attraction to Havok was never personal choice, but pre-progammed into her as he was a Magistrate and she was a mutate.

I believe it was that particular storyline which led to PAD leaving X-Factor, but can't recall for certain.

Date: 2017-04-04 12:56 pm (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
Yeah, it was definitely presented as a 'this is off' and Rahne was clearly neither in favor of it nor in control of it. I just remember a scene where he wakes up in bed and she's perched at the end of the bed, watching him. It was creepy and weird (and I assume meant to be), but even with the 'what's happening to me' parts, it felt odd and poorly executed.

I had sort of dropped most of the X-titles around that time, so I was out by the time Xtinction Agenda it's possible some of this material just sailed over my head. By the time the Acolytes showed up, I was off of this title, too.

Date: 2017-04-03 07:07 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Here, Edie seems very similar to Rhane, or how she was at first. Maybe they are going for something more direct regarding religion than whatever Claremont and Simonson could do back in the 1980s.

Also, new mutants being born means they won't get their powers until they are thirteen or so. But if Marvel doesn't care about that, why should I?

Date: 2017-04-03 08:00 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
"Born" in this instance doesn't mean the mutants are the ones being born.
People all over the world suddenly have new mutants powers because... uh...
Hey, look over there!
*runs away*

Date: 2017-04-04 01:25 pm (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
maybe it just means an unlocking of whatever Wanda did to prevent those people's X-factor from activating in the first place.

Date: 2017-04-03 07:11 pm (UTC)
every_spiegel: (darkness)
From: [personal profile] every_spiegel
Dance like there's no tomorrow, ah.

Date: 2017-04-03 10:19 pm (UTC)
lbd_nytetrayn: Star Force Dragonzord Power! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lbd_nytetrayn
Well, that sucks. I was liking Broo.

Date: 2017-04-04 12:20 am (UTC)
byc: (Default)
From: [personal profile] byc
Krakoa seems to enjoy being the campus.

Date: 2017-04-04 10:55 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Krakoa is first in family to get to be a college.

Krakoa's family very proud.

Date: 2017-04-04 02:30 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
Am I right in thinking that this was the first X-series to really embrace the colorfulness of the Marvel setting? Claremont and most that followed him kept the whole thing in a relatively realistic tenor. (Keyword: Relatively.) Morrison brought the color, but it was a distinctly Morrison color apart from the rest of the Marvel U. Here we have spectacle-wearing Brood students and living campuses and a Deathlok hanging around.

Date: 2017-04-04 03:07 am (UTC)
flint_marko: (Default)
From: [personal profile] flint_marko
Well, the characters are pretty cartoonish.

Date: 2017-04-04 03:46 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
I always thought Excalibur was pretty colorful from the get-go, possibly because Alan Moore had set the tone when writing Captain Britain. (As well as other Marvel UK creators, I imagine.)
Edited Date: 2017-04-04 03:50 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-04-04 10:56 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Yeah, I'd say Excalibur was the first, especially when Claremont or Davis were writing. Ellis and others, less so.


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