[identity profile] colonel_green.insanejournal.com posting in [community profile] scans_daily

Four scans from Fantastic Four #569.

This is the final issue of the extended Mark Millar run (because of Hitch's mother's death, he had to stop working on the art for this issue or give up doing Reborn).

So the Marquis is defeated, Doom gets a really, really big power upgrade, and the issue ends with the Ben/Debbie wedding, which runs into a snag when Ben doesn't show up.  Debbie eventually finds him.

Debbie gets a drink, then leaves and runs into Sue and a bunch of other heroes, who have also been trying to find Ben.

English nerd interjection:  They're both wrong (and, quite possibly, Millar knows this); Tennyson was talking about the death of a friend.

Anyway, Debbie remarks that that must be a guy thing, because she doesn't know any women who'd make the same choice (Sue agrees).

Johnny heads off, and Reed's buying.

Stuart Immonen does a great job of mimicking Hitch's art here.

And two from Wonder Woman #34.

While most of the issue is Diana and Dinah girling it up, there's an interlude on Themyscira, as regime change continues.

Ah, Philippus; you never get to actually do much, but you're always there.

One of the things I found odd about the "Rise of the Olympian" arc was how little Achilles actually did during it; from what's been shown of him so far, I do like him.

Zeus's replacement-Diana has apparently inherited real-Diana's awful taste in the opposite sex.  "On this distrustful island, she's the most distrustful and man-hating of them all!  Marry me, baby!"

Date: 2009-07-30 12:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandoz_iscariot.insanejournal.com
Of course it sucks. And I'm not reproaching Spider-Man for mourning Gwen or thinking about her constantly.

But it's still a problematic trope that walks almost hand-in-hand with fridging ("Raise your hand if you're a superhero with a dead girlfriend!") and often leads to the "I'm ending this for your own good!" stuff seen here, which can be gratingly paternalistic. Combined with the anvilicious "See how good it is we put in the genie back in the bottle and undid the Spider-Marriage, because it means he won't have a love interest in mortal danger!" spiel Daredevil just gave Spider-Man, I'm rolling my eyes here. (Plus, we almost never see this situation with a female superhero and male love interest.)

Date: 2009-07-30 01:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] felinephoenix.insanejournal.com
Exactly. I actually found this to be a good version of this old, tired cliche story - I do understand and sympathize with Ben here, even though I think he made a mistake - but that doesn't mean the trope isn't in and of itself problematic.

To be honest, I think it's kind of OOC for Peter to advise Ben not to go through with his marriage out of fear. Because Peter's been there. Even though he'll always regret what happened to Gwen (and nice touch there, I much prefer that take to the Saint Gwen nonsense) he knows better than the other guys that you can move on and have a good, lasting relationship even if your girlfriend/wife/whatever dies on you. Out of all those men, I believe he's the only one who did in fact move on.

... hahahaha oh WAIT silly me that's right I keep forgetting the marriage didn't happen.

Date: 2009-07-30 03:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oddpuppets.insanejournal.com
That's the problem with using the 'trope'. On one hand, you understand why the hero does this. They can't bear to see the person they love in danger for their association with the hero, especially with a public hero like the Thing, so they say "I can't do this to you." On the other hand, by doing this they are seizing all the responsibility in the relation ship and not giving their significant other a say in their relationship - key word there, because its not just about you, Ben/Hero of whatever novel or book.

Slipping in between these two hands comes a tentative, shy little bugger of an extremity who goes "Well, yes, but if you are in love you do stupid, selfish things, because of a variety of factors that would take far too long to explain in this one little quote here - essentially boiling down to, in a purely selfish manner, he can't imagine dealing without her so doesn't want to go that way." Another hand pops around and says, " 'Tis true. Love is all about opening up and letting someone in and well, let's be honest, we're not very good at that."

At some point a hydra/Shiva-like creature of many, many hands try to wrangle their way through the argument and it all ends in tears. Essentially, I think that while people are right in pointing out that the trope is not only overdone but rarely satisfyingly, it's also a bit too much to claim paternalistic. That would imply that his actions are either deliberately thought of through or caused by a paternalistic impulse, whereas I think that in this case, and probably in most cases, it's mostly selfish. Especially in character-driven books, since obviously we're supposed to look from the point of the protagonist(s). And you know what, that's okay. I just would rather they try to deal with it honestly and don't either Spat-fight or Martyr-Accept.

Date: 2009-07-30 04:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fredneil.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)
I think his point is that even if you can have a good, lasting relationship, there's still the fear (and more importantly, the possibility) that the person you're in a good, lasting relationship with will be killed. He moved on and Gwen's still dead. If Ben got married and his wife were killed, Ben would move on and his wife would still be dead.

As good as the marriage with Mary Jane is (it's eventually coming back. It's just a question of when) and without getting into the question of who Peter loved "more," which is a silly question anyway, I have no doubt that if he were offered the chance to go back in time and save Gwen's life, but it would mean he never married Mary Jane, he would do it. And without thinking about it, I just came up what would have been a better way to get rid of the marriage than what they actually went with.


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