cyberghostface: (Two-Face)
[personal profile] cyberghostface posting in [community profile] scans_daily


From Batman: Cacophony #3.

Joker is stabbed in his heart. Gordon tells Batman to let him die but Batman responds that Joker is still a human being.



Later...













Date: 2017-05-20 09:55 pm (UTC)
megaspork: "Hello Mr. Hat!" (Default)
From: [personal profile] megaspork
Ralph Garman did an amazing audio read of this scene as part of one of Kevin Smith's podcasts. I say amazing because it suits the tone but he also read it in the voices of adam west batman and the actor who played the joker in the adam west batman.

Date: 2017-05-20 11:58 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
the actor who played the joker in the adam west batman

Cesar Romero

Date: 2017-05-20 10:12 pm (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
Part of me hates the idea of stable Joker being so open and honest, simply because it's a temporary violation of his most defining attribute.

Then I figure that a stable Joker is simply one who can better access and vocalize the psychological tools needed to upset and destabilize his foes. He's still insane, he's just able to focus it better to tell Batman what he wants Batman to hear... this time.

Date: 2017-05-20 10:49 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Yea. I don't think Joker's villainy actually relies on Batman around- like, that's his focus, but if Bruce was gone, he'd go after his legacy, or find a new foe, or something.

But I do think Joker would *tell* Batman that's the case because it messes with Bats.

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Date: 2017-05-21 02:39 am (UTC)
goattoucher: (Zod)
From: [personal profile] goattoucher
I don't think that there's anything wrong with Joker that drugs can fix. Fixing him like any other unbalanced person would be like diagnosing him like any other unbalanced person: He's something else entirely.

This is likely just another mind game he's playing on Bats.

Date: 2017-05-20 10:19 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
This is very very Not Good. Having Batman actively save the Joker's life with this kind of take on the Joker is stupid, it doesn't make Batman flawed or human, it makes him actively monstrous in that he actively puts his own codependency above the lives of numerous other people. It's got the sensibility of a bongwater soaked college sophomore thinking that he's come around to a profound and "adult" take on Batman.

Kevin Smith's writing sucks.

Date: 2017-05-20 10:43 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Yes, I agree. Batman wanting to save everyone is good and all, but he should have far better things to do than saving Joker.

Heck, if he feels he has to make an effort, call an ambulance, let them make the call.

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Date: 2017-05-21 12:56 am (UTC)
burkeonthesly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] burkeonthesly
I feel this is very Good, for the exact same reason you feel opposite. This is a light showing that Batman isn't merely flawed, he is broken on a fundamental level, and has just been forced to face that fact for himself. He says it himself, he thought he'd be okay with the Joker dying as long as he wasn't the one who caused it, but he wouldn't. When push comes to shove, he has to, has to, has to try to save every life he possibly can.

Even that one.

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Date: 2017-05-21 01:31 am (UTC)
thatnickguy: Oreo-lovin' Martian (Default)
From: [personal profile] thatnickguy
I remember a one-shot issue back around...I want to say the late 90s...where Joker was on death row. But Batman knew he was innocent of the crime in question, so did everything in his power to clear him of the charges.

Not the exact same circumstance, but in THAT example, I can see Batman doing what he can to bring the real culprit to justice, even if it means saving Joker's life.

Date: 2017-05-21 05:36 pm (UTC)
ozaline: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ozaline
I'm not a fan of Kevin Smith's writing in general but I do agree Batman is a control freak who can't let anyone die (except for that time he disintegrated Ra's Al Ghul... and that other time when...)

Date: 2017-05-20 10:37 pm (UTC)
obsidianwolf: 3 of 3 Icons I never change (Default)
From: [personal profile] obsidianwolf
You know what's really mind boggling is not that Batman won't kill him or let him die that fits with Bats issues perfectly it is the fact that no one else has simply shot him or let him die.

I mean in a town with a police force so corrupt you can't throw a stick without hitting a corrupt cop you'd think sooner or later the joker would be shot trying to escape. Or a doctor trying to save his life after the latest near death experience would slip up and sever an artery and just not manage to stop the bleeding.

Date: 2017-05-20 10:42 pm (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
Sadly, the Joker has some of the best plot immunity in all of comics.

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Date: 2017-05-20 10:45 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
That's also true. It's really not just Batman's fault- yea, he should let Joker die, but why does everyone else only kill him/try to let him die when Batman is around?

And heck with corrupt cop. Straight cop, shoots Joker, resigns and turns himself in. "This broke the law so I clearly cannot continue as a police officer, but I felt I had to do so."

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Date: 2017-05-20 11:08 pm (UTC)
draganoche: Dreams define Reality (Default)
From: [personal profile] draganoche
What makes you think people haven't tried? Do you really think it's beyond the Joker to kill a couple of smucks?

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Date: 2017-05-21 12:20 am (UTC)
dr_archeville: Doctor Arkeville (Default)
From: [personal profile] dr_archeville
My understanding is that two in-universe reasons have been given.

One, that the people of Gotham are so terrified of Joker, they won't even try to off him, out of fear of what will happen if they miss and he comes after them.

Two, knowing that people come back from the dead on a not irregular basis, Batman has the fear that if he was killed, he'd eventually come back, possibly as something even worse (like as a demon).

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Date: 2017-05-20 11:09 pm (UTC)
reveen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] reveen
I mean, this whole scene is much telling us that pills actually work on him. The point this scene is driving at is now totally moot, because apparently as long as you keep the meds coming you can just keep him in jail indefinitely.

He even fucking says that the docs can keep him doped up enough to turn him into a vegetable. But they can already fucking do that, nothing's stopping them!

This is dum.
Edited Date: 2017-05-20 11:14 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-05-21 01:09 am (UTC)
zylly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zylly
Yeeeeeah. If this actually works, so to speak, why is he not medicated to the gills like this all the damn time by court order?

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Date: 2017-05-20 11:16 pm (UTC)
bradygirl_12: (batman--robin (no!!!))
From: [personal profile] bradygirl_12
Gotta say I agree with Jim here, "Let him go."

I figure if anyone kills Joker, it'll either be Jim or Alfred. Both their families have suffered mightily at the Clown Prince's hands.
Edited Date: 2017-05-20 11:17 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-05-20 11:57 pm (UTC)
lissa_quon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lissa_quon
So...what I'm getting from this is no one in the hospital went "oops - we lost him" and just didn't do anything. Yes Hippocratic oath and all but still that's hard to swallow.

Also - the whole "we can drug Joker and he's fine. What the fuck drugs did they give him? How does one just come up with a cocktail for that sort without a lot of trial and error. So are we implying ARKHAM actually figured it out and got him to stay on meds long enough to do anything in the past. Also hard to swallow, Also brain meds don't usually work that quick. Speaking from personal experience.

Date: 2017-05-21 01:13 am (UTC)
burkeonthesly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] burkeonthesly
I read it as Joker not really being affected by the meds, at least not in the way Batman is hoping. This is his Hannibal Lecter act, with the fava beans and the nice Chianti.

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On a COMPLETELY different note...

Date: 2017-05-21 01:06 am (UTC)
alicemacher: Lisa Winklemeyer from the webcomic Penny and Aggie, c2004-2011 G. Lagacé, T Campbell (Default)
From: [personal profile] alicemacher
...is no one else as creeped out as I am by the sight of Joker with a long, scraggly, non-green beard?

Re: On a COMPLETELY different note...

Date: 2017-05-21 01:23 am (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
It's an artistic Choice, that's for sure. I think it's supposed to be kind of strange and off-putting, but that doesn't make it a good artistic decision.

Re: On a COMPLETELY different note...

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Re: On a COMPLETELY different note...

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Re: On a COMPLETELY different note...

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Re: On a COMPLETELY different note...

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Re: On a COMPLETELY different note...

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Re: On a COMPLETELY different note...

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Date: 2017-05-21 02:39 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
This reminds me a little of the Spider-Man/Punisher problem. The Punisher only kills bad guys, but Spider-Man KNOWS that is going to happen every time the Punisher "gets away." That's why I don't get why Spider-Man never captures the Punisher.

Yes, sending the Punisher to prison is like sending a metaphor to another metaphor and lots of metaphors getting killed by the Punisher, but you get my meaning.

Date: 2017-05-21 04:04 am (UTC)
lbd_nytetrayn: Star Force Dragonzord Power! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lbd_nytetrayn
I might have a possible solution for the Joker issue. Granted, it's not flawless, if only due to history, but going forward: Have him swear off killing (well, mostly -- I'm sure exceptions would need to be made. Like, say, Batman).

But the rampant/casual murder? Say he got bored with it. It's become droll, and it's less a punchline than a running gag that's overstayed its welcome, like so many Family Guy bits.

Besides, why kill people when all that provides is an end, when there's so much more fun to have, so much more you can do to people when they're alive? You can do a lot to a person while they're alive -- stuff that might even make them wish they were dead.

We've seen these sorts of schemes in the likes of Batman: The Animated Series and others before. Remember that time when he gassed Gotham and had everyone laughing in fits while he went on a shopping spree? How about the Joker fish? Sure, that killed people, but imagine a milder dose that doesn't kill, but still leaves that enormous grin.

"Good luck getting a date with those choppers, bucko!"

Oh, and there was Joker's Favor, which yeah, it was going to end with people dying, but it wasn't quite the same as shooting the manager of a fast food drive-thru for terrible service.

Push it well enough, and maybe you can get around the whole "people will keep dying as long as he lives" sort of thing. Then he can even start trolling the heroes with the fact that he's not pulling that stuff any more.

I think there's a way to work with him, even keep him on the darker side of things, without kill sprees -- particularly successful ones -- which always inevitably lead to the question of why someone doesn't just kill him.

Date: 2017-05-21 10:02 am (UTC)
commodus: (Default)
From: [personal profile] commodus
I wish someone in their universe would acknowledge that The Joker is clearly NOT insane. People who suffer from mental illnesses don't typically go around bragging about how "crazy" they are - and numerous other villains have shown how these illnesses are debilitating and require compassion and treatment.

Honestly, it just feels ridiculous.

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Date: 2017-05-21 04:11 pm (UTC)
deh_tommy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
To be honest, he's not necessarily wrong. Going Sane showed the Joker falling in love and reintegrating into society after he thinks he killed Batman. Superheavy had the Joker beg Bruce Wayne not to become Batman anymore, because if the latter went back than the former would likely follow him as well. Telltalle's John Doe was thought of by the staff to be rather trustworthy until Bruce was locked up with him.
Edited Date: 2017-05-21 04:12 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-05-22 03:57 pm (UTC)
an_idol_mind: (Default)
From: [personal profile] an_idol_mind
A lot of the Joker problem could be mitigated by the use of some literary restraint on his actions.

He doesn't have to kill a thousand people every time he escapes Arkham.

The Batman TAS Joker worked very well despite having a low body count. In fact, I would argue he worked well because of the low body count. Stuff like Return of the Joker has a lot more punch when it's something he normally wouldn't do.

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