lucean: (Default)
[personal profile] lucean posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Greetings to one and all,

So the Wonder Woman movie finally arrived this week and today opened on most theaters in the Western World. As I just came back from watching it, I thought to make a discussion post for those of us who managed to catch it in this opening weekend as there is so much I want to say about this movie. Most naturally there are spoilers abound after the cut.

Now as context I'm a person who loved both MoS and BvS, so while I was also nervous going in to the movie, I was a different reason as I was worried that they would take away from that epic, operatic nature of the two movies. Yet I have to admit, I absolutely loved that movie at the end of it, and that choice of words is very deliberate. In my attempt to somehow not make this feel like a novel, I'll try to contain those thoughts in a few bullet points below.

-The Screen Junkies review of this movie made an interesting point in that while the movie is really long, it needed to be that long and while watching it, I completely understood. The first half at times irritated me because I didn't understand some of the location transitions and it had this almost breezy nature to it, which I didn't at times enjoy, but when we hit the second half, that first half was absolutely necessary. It in many ways allowed us to understand what it meant for Diana to truly understand war for the first time and what that meant.

-And speaking of that war, I saw a lot of the negative early reviews compare this to Captain America: First Avenger, but I feel that comparison is not accurate at all and also actually is negative towards that Captain America movie as this movie does attempt to make war just feel ugly instead of this easy divide 'Here be goodies, here be baddies, everything is bizarrely clean'.

-The one thing I disliked in this movie was Ares, but I don't know how fair my dislike is. I completely understood what he represented here, this power that had no faith in humanity which directly tied to Diana's great realization, but there have been so many great versions of Ares in comics that having this very barren version of him here just struck me in a bad way. Especially since David Thewliss could have done such great things with, for example, the Azzarello Ares. Still, that would have required a very different movie, so again I understand the decision.

-The action is just beatiful in this movie and, while it was without a doubt a Patty Jenkins movie, you could feel Zack Snyder's influence there in the best possible way as it managed to really capture the sense of power whenever Diana spruing in to action. In addition, I thought the Jezebel review made a really good point about how Jenkins would frame the female action in a comic book panel way where they always centered it on the woman while they hit the slow-mo.

-Gal Gadot was absolutely perfect as Diana and while this is a breakout role for her, it will also be the role that will probably define her going forward. What I really liked was that while Diana was a very assertive character in this movie, she also had a clear arc that required from Gadot with her managing to really rise to the occasion. Chris Pine was also great in this movie and the two of them truly made even the cumbersome bits really work.

-Something that was also pointed out was that instead of trying to have Gadot get rid of her accent, they essentially had all the Amazons adopt that accent. It really added a lot because it felt like all the Amazons were of the same people while making them feel distinct.

-Finally, something that I really appreciated was that while this was a true standalone movie outside the initial framing device, it has a really interesting relationship with BvS as both of them really added to each other. This movie gives us a deeper understanding of Diana's character in that movie and that in many ways she had fallen as much as Bruce had by having lost that faith in humanity that allowed her to overcome Ares at the end of this movie. That really enhanced her decision to stand with Bruce and Clark at the end of that movie. However, even moreso, I felt having seen BvS really added to Diana's final moments here as it made you understand what Diana meant with her response to Bruce. For her, Bruce returning Trevor to her wasn't about the picture, but him having reminded her of how humans can overcome their internal darkness. It also made me really intrigued about the Diana/Bruce relationship heading in to Justice League movie as there is a really interesting dynamic there.

With that, I finish this post and would love to hear others thoughts on the movie.

Date: 2017-06-02 10:33 pm (UTC)
ozaline: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ozaline
"feel that comparison is not accurate at all and also actually is negative towards that Captain America movie as this movie does attempt to make war just feel ugly instead of this easy divide 'Here be goodies, here be baddies, everything is bizarrely clean'."

I wouldn't say it is inaccurate rather simply incomplete. The German General is like Red Skull, Morrow is like Zola, and Steve is like Captain America... it is thathe which allows Diana to maintain her belief in good guys, and bad guys for as long as she does, and what makes her almost shatter when that illusion is ripped away. She only allows herself to see one side of the conflict and assumes everything can be pinned on one bad leader.

...

Anyway I am a bit miffed still by the daughter of Zeus thing, but they made it work.

And I liked Ares, I just wish we got to see more of how he played the allies. It is a bit odd though how Lucifer like he is... Usually Hades gets that.
Edited Date: 2017-06-02 10:34 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-06-02 11:13 pm (UTC)
ironymaiden: (heroine: mina)
From: [personal profile] ironymaiden
Steve wasn't the only one - Chief tells her that Steve's people are his bad guys, Sameer tells her that he's a con man because discrimination pushed him out of acting.

This was more of a coming-of-age story than an origin story: a talented but sheltered person leaves home and has the experiences that move them to adulthood. Diana is profoundly changed. In that sense, very different from MCU Captain America who is very clearly the exact same person who makes the same choices before and after the serum.

Date: 2017-06-02 11:39 pm (UTC)
ozaline: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ozaline
Moving it from WWII to WWI was brilliant because WWI is THE war to talk about the inertia of the industrial-military complex, with all this other negativety in the background.

WWII on the other hand is one of the few wars it's hard not to see as just, even if the allies had their atrocities. If the concept of war is the enemy WWI is the place to be.

Ares was perfect in his own self justifiaction, "look I just gave them incredibly destructive weapons... I didn't make them use it."
Edited Date: 2017-06-02 11:40 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-06-03 01:27 am (UTC)
baroncognito: (Default)
From: [personal profile] baroncognito
Yeah, there's a lot of the theology in the movie I didn't care for. They made the greek pantheon seem almost Christian with a singular "God" figure and a singular "Devil" figure because no one but Zeus and Ares got named at all.

I don't see how "Zeus is your father" is a change from "Hippolyta sculpted you from clay and Zeus imbued you with life." as stated in the movie. If they mean "You're not made of clay, you're a product of sexual reproduction." I think it would make more sense to negate the clay part. "Your mom lied to you. Haven't you noticed that you bleed in a way clay does not?"

Date: 2017-06-03 02:29 am (UTC)
ozaline: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ozaline
It bothers me because the Perez origin with her getting gifts from several gods mirrors the myth of Pandora as told by Hessiod, and I think that's import.
Edited Date: 2017-06-03 02:30 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-06-03 03:04 am (UTC)
baroncognito: (Default)
From: [personal profile] baroncognito
Oh, yeah, I understand the difference between "All the gods came together and gave you this power" and "Zeus gave you this power" and I definitely prefer "All the gods came together and gave you this power."

But I don't see the difference between "Zeus imbued you with life" and "Zeus is your father."

Date: 2017-06-03 03:44 am (UTC)
ozaline: Ozma from Skottie Young and Eric Shanower's Ozma of Oz comic adaptation (Ozma)
From: [personal profile] ozaline
Oh yeah, fair enough. Me neither for that matter.

And honestly it was OBVIOUS she was both Zeus' child and the god killer from the first time her mother said not to tell her who she really was.

Date: 2017-06-03 03:43 am (UTC)
luxshine: (Default)
From: [personal profile] luxshine
There's also the fact that Zeus didn't imbued WW with life. THAT was the goddesses. There was ONE man involved on Diana's creation and that was Hermes. By giving her the gift of speed. Everything else? Women and Goddesses.

(Also, in the Perez run? Zeus tried to rape Diana)

Date: 2017-06-04 05:25 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
If they are going to do Shazam/Captain Marvel/Black Adam for the DCEU, I don't think Zeus is going to be that bad. Or dead.

Date: 2017-06-03 02:59 am (UTC)
jeyl: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jeyl
I was really, REALLY concerned that they were just going to mock the clay origin. But after seeing it twice, I'm almost certain that the clay origin is STILL in. Hippolyta or any of the Amazons gave no clues or hints to Hippolyta being infatuated with Zues.

If Zues brought the clay statue to life, that's fine by me. As you said, it's not much different than what we already got.

Date: 2017-06-05 02:37 am (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
On second watch, Ares definitely made reference to Zeus leaving his child with Hippolyta as the weapon in the Amazons' keeping. Now, Ares wasn't present for the event and maybe isn't the best authority on how exactly the two went about producing a child, but he was telling the truth as he knew it. And let's be frank, this is Zeus we're talking about.

Date: 2017-06-03 10:40 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
-Anyway I am a bit miffed still by the daughter of Zeus thing, but they made it work. -

A thing on that, I'm still not convinced there *wasn't* clay involved or something, just that Zeus put in enough of himself to make her a demigod.

Date: 2017-06-02 10:57 pm (UTC)
informationgeek: (PinkiePie)
From: [personal profile] informationgeek
I'll say the one and only thing I need to say about this movie: unlike any other comic book film I've watched, this is the only one that made me want to read more Wonder Woman. Superman, Iron Man, Batman, Avengers, Captain America, Suicide Squad, or others. Only Wonder Woman got me hyped to read more of her books.

On that note, Barnes and Noble is having Wonder Woman day tomorrow! Buy 2 DC trades, get one free and if there's a store in your area, swing by for some cool swag!

Date: 2017-06-02 11:14 pm (UTC)
ozaline: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ozaline
Also participating LCSes have free books to give out, and mine is going a sale.

Date: 2017-06-03 10:42 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
My store has had that running for a few days now. Plus they had a couple free WW comics.

I used the deal to snag both volumes of Sensation Comics featuring Wonder Woman (the anthology book- very good stuff, I especially dug the second. Plus from the first, we need more Amy Mebberson Wondy) + the first of Rucka's new run.

Date: 2017-06-03 01:18 am (UTC)
idiotalchemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] idiotalchemist
I'm looking forward to it, but I'm really worried about the whole Zeus bullcrap. Is it as bad as the New52, or did they manage to pull off a miracle and make it not stupid?

Date: 2017-06-03 03:13 am (UTC)
jeyl: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jeyl
******SPOILER!!!******

I've seen the movie twice and I paid extremely close attention to details that would support and dismiss Wondy's origins. My conclusion?

The Clay Origin still stands.

The difference here is that instead of the many gods giving their blessings to Diana to bring her life, it's just Zues. At no point in the film is it hinted or even suggested that Hippolyte had an affair or was infatuated with Zeus on that kind of level. When Ares spills the beans, he says something to this extent.

"Zeus gave the Amazons his last child to be used as a weapon."

If the film wanted to make a big deal that Hippolyte and Zeus had a thing, that would have been a perfect moment to do so. And since Zues created mankind from nothing, it wouldn't make sense for him to have sex with Hippolyte just so Diana could be born. I'd dare say that the way Hippolyte acts around Diana is a thousand times better than the New 52 Hippolyte because even though Zeus created Diana as a weapon for the Amazons, Hippolyte never treated Diana like that.

And the film wipes away another BAD New52 addition with glee. The Amazons are depicted as the good guys of this story who don't have sex with seamen, murder them and sell their male infants to serve as slaves in Hell!

Oh, one other thing. Brian Azzarello is not thanked in the credits, but Greg Rucka is. :D

Date: 2017-06-03 03:24 am (UTC)
idiotalchemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] idiotalchemist
Alright, that puts my mind at ease. Zeus already struck clay Diana with lightening in the original origin, and from what I've heard it definitely doesn't do the whole "men were responsible for all Diana's powers and training and ethics instead of her Amazon family" like Azzarello. Thank you for that. Off to the cinema!
Edited Date: 2017-06-03 03:26 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-06-03 10:47 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Antiope trained her btw. And Hippolyta was responsible for her ethics.

I was kinda disappointed that it wasn't Phillipus doing the training, but hey, maybe she can have a big role next time (I kinda want them to do the 'Phillipus is Hippolyta's girlfriend' thing that Gail wanted to do, but there'd not be much room for it here).

At first we're lead to believe that Wondy has no father, but newer information updates it so that Zeus counts-as her father, and no-where does it say it wasn't clay (and this is Zeus, he can work via sunbeam), so yea, I'm good with it, despite the involvement of Zeus it's so much better than the nu52 one.

Date: 2017-06-04 04:21 pm (UTC)
idiotalchemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] idiotalchemist
Saw the movie! I'm so happy it wasn't the Nu52-tinged mes I was fearing. They made very clear that Hippolytus and Antiope and the other Amazons were really responsible for Diana being who she was and Zeus is barely a footnote. Very very happy. I actually had fun watching a DC movie what is this sorcery.

Date: 2017-06-05 12:05 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Heck, for all I can tell the clay origin might've still been the truth, just Zeus shoved enough of himself in it to qualify her as a demigod.

I mean, the guy's had kids via sunbeam. That's within mythological parameters.

Hippolyta gave Diana her morals, Antiope her skills. They're who matter.

Date: 2017-06-05 03:36 pm (UTC)
idiotalchemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] idiotalchemist
Yup. And hopefully Phillipus will be in the picture in a future film. Maybe someone Hippolyta meets in man's world who helps change her views, given that apparently the Amazons are going to help out in Justice League?

Date: 2017-06-05 08:53 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Or just one of the Amazons who gets a more prominent role since Antiope, the second in command, died.

Date: 2017-06-03 01:47 am (UTC)
baroncognito: (Default)
From: [personal profile] baroncognito
I mentioned this in another post but I'll bring it up here too.

I liked the movie for the most part. It had precisely one "That's not Wonder Woman" moment for me, and that was when they said that the Lasso of Truth caused a burning pain in the people who it was used on.

That small distinction makes it an instrument of torture to me, and I don't believe that Wonder Woman would torture people.

Yes, I understand that there's a coercive element to the lasso of truth even if it doesn't cause pain, but I still don't feel that it is an instrument of torture because of that.

You can torture someone with the truth, that does not mean the truth is a torture device.

You can torture someone with water, that does not mean water is a torture device.

You can torture someone with dogs, that does not make dogs a torture device.

You can torture someone with a thumbscrew... maybe there's an element of authorial intent here? I definitely consider a thumbscrew a torture device even if you can find a thing to do with it that isn't torture.

Either the pain is not severe, people can ignore it, and it's not the reason that people are compelled to tell the truth, and it's just there because Hephaestus wanted to cause pain, in which case, it's a torture device that also compels people to tell the truth.

OR

The pain is severe enough to compel people to tell the truth and it a device that tortures people so they tell the truth.

Either of these options is entirely unnecessary to the story being told. It never comes up again after that one scene.

I wouldn't be as upset about this if I wasn't SO DAMN TIRED of writers deciding to have heroes torture people.

I was happy to ignore that for the rest of the film.

What I couldn't ignore was how dark the film was. Diana walks in on Steve in the bath and they spend almost the rest of the film in twilight. I might just have weird vision issues, but it was literally painful at times. I had to close my eyes to take breaks.

Date: 2017-06-03 02:06 am (UTC)
ironymaiden: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ironymaiden
Was it 3D or in a theater that shows 3D? Poor projection can definitely cause darker images and eyestrain.

Date: 2017-06-03 02:20 am (UTC)
baroncognito: (Default)
From: [personal profile] baroncognito
It was not 3D, I don't know if it was projection issues. I didn't have trouble with any of the other movies I've seen in that room of the theatre, and the trailers seemed fine. However, I cannot entirely rule out projection issues.

I just wish more of the film had been as colorful as the end credits.

Date: 2017-06-03 03:20 am (UTC)
jeyl: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jeyl
The film definitely had a grayish color to it when Diana leaves the island, but I wouldn't say that the film was too dark. I've seen this movie two times in two different theaters and I didn't encounter any problems with it being too dark.

And trust me, I KNOW that darkening up the image is starting to become trend. The recent American Godzilla movie toned down the brightness when it was released on BluRay that made an already dark movie impossible to watch, and The Arrival had it's picture heavily darkened to the point that I couldn't make out details that I swore I saw in the theater.

Date: 2017-06-03 03:49 am (UTC)
ozaline: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ozaline
I dunno that the pain is severe enough to cause them to tell the truth, just that they are compelled to tell the truth and holding back is what hurts... It didn't seem that severe to me. More an excuse for Steve to make "puh puh puh" sounds.

As I said before I don't find it a necessary or good addition, but I don't think they meant to imply torture.

Date: 2017-06-03 06:52 pm (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
I liked the movie for the most part. It had precisely one "That's not Wonder Woman" moment for me, and that was when they said that the Lasso of Truth caused a burning pain in the people who it was used on.

That small distinction makes it an instrument of torture to me, and I don't believe that Wonder Woman would torture people.


I think the heat was more a side effect. The Lasso's golden glow is empowered by the fires of Hestia, which the Amazons mentioned in the movie. Symbolically it's the Lasso's fire burning away falsehoods and revealing Truth.

Date: 2017-06-03 10:51 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
-
I liked the movie for the most part. It had precisely one "That's not Wonder Woman" moment for me, and that was when they said that the Lasso of Truth caused a burning pain in the people who it was used on.
-

I had a different view on that. Note that resisting it hurt, not simply having it on, and even then... by Steve's face it was far more 'mild discomfort as the truth is forced up.'

I don't think it was a purposeful part of the device so much as a side effect of trying to resist something strong and that causing some pain, and it certainly wasn't pain-compliance.

Date: 2017-06-03 02:04 am (UTC)
baroncognito: (Default)
From: [personal profile] baroncognito
Oh, actually, I do have one question:

I feel like the scene in the clothes shop had a purpose, but I had no idea what it was. Can anyone enlighten me?

Date: 2017-06-03 02:19 am (UTC)
ironymaiden: (bondage)
From: [personal profile] ironymaiden
I thought it was part of the dance they did around introducing Diana to the role of women in the world outside Themiscyra. (Also I think there was a post this week where Golden Age WW was into clothes.)

Date: 2017-06-03 03:51 am (UTC)
ozaline: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ozaline
It added humor, allowed Etta to shine, and yeah she would have caused even more of a stir if she walked into the council chamber? House of Lords? What was that??? In her armor. Not to mention the later bar scene and so on.

That scene was great. Also poked fun at her Clark Kenting.
Edited Date: 2017-06-03 03:51 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-06-03 10:38 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
-The Screen Junkies review of this movie made an interesting point in that while the movie is really long, it needed to be that long and while watching it, I completely understood. The first half at times irritated me because I didn't understand some of the location transitions and it had this almost breezy nature to it, which I didn't at times enjoy, but when we hit the second half, that first half was absolutely necessary. It in many ways allowed us to understand what it meant for Diana to truly understand war for the first time and what that meant.-

Honestly from the run-time I expected it to feel longer but when we were getting to the end I went, 'wait, I thought this movie was super-long, we're here already?'.

So yea, the pacing was good for me.

Date: 2017-06-04 05:54 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Some of Ares' motive rant to Diana wandered into "Wars are fought because that's what people do" territory. Which always bugs me, especially in Star Trek. Us savage humans can't control our childish emotions.

If Shazam/Black Adam/Captain Marvel are going to be a part of the DCEU, some of what Hypolyta told Diana has to be incorrect. The Greek gods aren't dead. Maybe mostly dead?

This got surprisingly deep for a "superhero movie," even deeper than "Logan" did.

Date: 2017-06-04 04:29 pm (UTC)
idiotalchemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] idiotalchemist
Well, Ares is supposed to be wrong, and it does tie into the whole "people make themselves who they are, for better and worse, though one day hopefully mostly for the better" theme the movie had. I saw it not so much the movie saying that we can't control ourselves (though Ares certainly believes that), but that we can but some people choose violence and hate as first recourse and drag others with them and the thing to do is to not allow hate to consume one and let it to allow people to follow those who do choose violence first. That's just my interpretation and it worked for me.

Date: 2017-06-06 11:32 pm (UTC)
bradygirl_12: (steve--diana (love))
From: [personal profile] bradygirl_12
Just saw it! I pretty much agree with the previous posts here. I do think the Lasso's pain comes from someone trying to hold in the truth but forced to tell it. It didn't come across as torture to me, and I hate torture scenes, but this felt non-torturous.

I thought it would have been a neat twist if Diana killed Ludendorff and the war continued and there was no Ares at all, or he was Ares and still the war continued. She would still be shattered and we'd be spared yet another long CGI battle. :)

As a ltfelong Steve/Diana fan, I loved their chemistry, opportunity for romance, and their first meeting remained true to WW's Golden Age origin, just that no Germans were part of it in the comics.

Nice little switch of beefcake Steve for the female gaze (yup, and the male gaze, too!). :)

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