[personal profile] history79 posting in [community profile] scans_daily



"Running through the story is a lighthearted (ish) critique of current social and political commentary, wherein some of the ways in which the political left expresses itself comes in for a bit of a bashing. These are people I want to see succeed, but I worry they undermine themselves with the sometimes extremely pompous manner in which they respond to the world.

An obvious example would be the appalling phrase “politically correct”, which was horribly self-righteous to begin with but has now rebounded on its original exponents, who’ve ended up simply handing the bad guys a stick with which to beat them. Its modern equivalent seems to be the even more dreadful “problematic”. If you’re going to express disgust, don’t be polite about it."

- Garth Ennis
















Date: 2017-06-15 10:33 pm (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
Subtle.

Date: 2017-06-15 10:42 pm (UTC)
reveen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] reveen
Hey Garth, if you're going to have a "political correctness gone mad!" meltdown please keep it on Twitter like everyone else. The other people involve in this just want to create good comics, don't make it fucking weird.

Date: 2017-06-16 01:35 pm (UTC)
filthysize: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filthysize
His quote said the exact opposite. He's saying it's not mad enough for his liking.

Date: 2017-06-15 10:45 pm (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
Trigger words, Theo. Trigger words.

Specific imagery is only really effective when you know enough about your target to craft appropriately.

Date: 2017-06-15 11:34 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
left wingers invented the term to use on themselves

Date: 2017-06-15 11:36 pm (UTC)
fungo_squiggly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] fungo_squiggly
Huh, I actually found this sort of funny.

Not really surprising, though, that Garth Ennis doesn't seem to understand that when the phrase "politically correct" started out it was meant satirically, not self-righteously.

Still, the phrase really has become coopted by some truly disgusting people, these days, and used to minimize their own racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. behavior.

Date: 2017-06-16 12:04 am (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
Man, when Ennis lets loose, he goes all the way.

Date: 2017-06-16 01:19 am (UTC)
alicemacher: Lisa Winklemeyer from the webcomic Penny and Aggie, c2004-2011 G. Lagacé, T Campbell (Default)
From: [personal profile] alicemacher
"If you’re going to express disgust, don’t be polite about it."

Well, that's a new one, accusing progressives of being too polite. It's almost refreshing. Normally the sort of tone policing thrown at us is the claim we're too angry or confrontational or we use too many swear words.

As for the comic itself, I wonder if the Bond-expy Jimmy Regent is in any way a response to Moore's portrayal, in LoEG: The Black Dossier, of "Jimmy" Bond as misogynistic, traitorous and not even all that competent.

Date: 2017-06-16 01:41 pm (UTC)
filthysize: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filthysize
It certainly reminds me of that, but I also think it's just a pretty obvious modern reading of the attitudes presented in the Fleming novels. Moore and Ennis are frequent collaborators these days, so maybe they've laughed over their thoughts on Bond before also.

Date: 2017-06-16 02:01 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Problematic is such an aggravating word because it can mean almost anything. Just say what you have the problem with.

Date: 2017-06-16 04:32 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Ideally it's paired with a description.

Ironically it, like a lot of these phrases, is a way of trying to say "there are issues with this but I don't mean it as an attack on you," which of course, inevitably gets taken as "You're trying to attack me and call me racist/sexist/etc., aren't you??".

Date: 2017-06-16 04:26 am (UTC)
mesmiranda: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mesmiranda
I'm so, so, so tired of the argument against trigger warnings and safe spaces. I mean it. I'm tired. I'm done. It's like, okay, man, congratulations. I'm really super glad you're desensitized to blood/gore/violence/whatever to the point it doesn't personally affect you. That's awesome that nothing shitty has ever happened in your life that you really don't want to talk about (especially when Some Guy is yelling about how it probably didn't happen and/or you deserved it). Great. Your complete lack of empathy is just fantastic. Go you.

Also I'd much rather have a comic about the put-upon black female MI6 agent than Whats-his-face Bond over here. But I want a Moneypenny movie, so what do I know.

Date: 2017-06-16 04:33 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Seriously, yes.

Date: 2017-06-16 01:51 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
IMO they're needed a lot of the time but recently they've gone from 'causing actual psychological triggers' to 'this makes me mildly uncomfortable'. I've seen (not exaggerating) people asking for trigger warnings on pictures of salad or exercise posts because they were fat.

Date: 2017-06-17 03:15 am (UTC)
mesmiranda: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mesmiranda
...I mean, I have absolutely no problem with spiders. Spiders are cool. But if one of my friends had a phobia of spiders, and didn't want to see a picture of a spider or hold a spider or be near a spider in any way, I wouldn't dump a spider on their head and go, "Oh, come on, it's just a spider, you're being really dumb about this." At the very least, I wouldn't expect to keep them as a friend afterwards.

Maybe it seems small and silly to you. But if they don't want to talk about exercise or salad or whatever--and that's really what trigger warnings and safe spaces are about: creating places where you don't have to constantly be aware of or talk about or explain personal painful stuff if you don't want to--then they shouldn't have to talk about it with justifying it first. It's not my place to say if someone has it, or doesn't have it, bad enough to 'merit' a trigger warning, and I don't know if it's anybody else's, either. Ultimately it takes something like two seconds to add the labels, it's a considerate thing to do, and everyone goes home happy, so really: why not?

(Also, as a certified Fat Person, I can tell you right now that I get real tired of being told to eat more salads and exercise more. Let me tell you the story of my people.)
Edited Date: 2017-06-17 03:15 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-06-17 10:43 pm (UTC)
mrosa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrosa
Psychologists consider safe spaces dangerous:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/college-confidential/201703/safe-spaces-can-be-dangerous

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/more-mortal/201605/when-safe-spaces-become-danger-zones

The obvious problem that even a layman understands immediately is that you don't overcome something by avoiding it. Therapy involves people talking about their problems, confronting them.

Also, gently avoiding talking about spiders or salads is one thing; another thing is college staff bringing "coloring books, crayons, markers and colored pencils" for allegedly grown-up students to de-stress after Trump won the elections:

http://eagnews.org/universities-offer-play-doh-therapy-dogs-coloring-books-safe-spaces-for-students-hurt-by-election/

To say nothing of Law students who don't want teachers to discuss rape in class; that'll really get them ready for court:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3632119/Why-today-s-young-women-just-FEEBLE-t-cope-ideas-challenge-right-view-world-says-academic.html

Safe spaces, trigger warnings, and jazz hands are not so much political correctness as insanity gone mad. I for one would love an awesome satire about it, but I doubt Ennis can deliver it.

Agreement on the above from a social worker

Date: 2017-06-18 02:35 am (UTC)
alicemacher: Lisa Winklemeyer from the webcomic Penny and Aggie, c2004-2011 G. Lagacé, T Campbell (Default)
From: [personal profile] alicemacher
It's noteworthy that even the Ethos statement of this very community states, correctly: "The moderation team is always striving to make it a safer space for all fans, but this is not a safe space." (emphasis in original)."

In other words, the mods cannot guarantee 100% that s_d members will never come across triggering, disturbing or offensive content here, and thus the rules--again, correctly--don't presume to prevent the very posting of comic-book excerpts that may cause such reactions. All the mods can do is ensure that such posts are labelled accordingly, so as to minimize such risks.

Safe spaces, whether online or face-to-face, are a fine thing in theory, but the reality is that this is not a safe world. No one can count on going through life 100% sheltered from anything or anyone that can hurt them. That absolutely does not give others a moral carte blanche to say and do whatever they like and not care about the possible hurtful consequences. Nor does that exempt us from educating ourselves about statements and actions that can reasonably be expected to be triggering for others.

That said, each of us also bears some responsibility for our own well-being, and that includes being open, when ready, to therapies and practices that can empower us to cope with our hurt. Those who refuse to engage with the world unless it's made absolutely free of their triggers run the risk of developing house-bound agoraphobia. While this can be treated and overcome, the process is much harder and more time-consuming than learning coping strategies before it gets to that point.

Re: Agreement on the above from a social worker

Date: 2017-06-18 02:38 am (UTC)
mesmiranda: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mesmiranda
All the mods can do is ensure that such posts are labelled accordingly, so as to minimize such risks.

Which is what trigger warnings are, no?

Re: Agreement on the above from a social worker

Date: 2017-06-18 06:49 pm (UTC)
alicemacher: Lisa Winklemeyer from the webcomic Penny and Aggie, c2004-2011 G. Lagacé, T Campbell (Default)
From: [personal profile] alicemacher
I never said otherwise. I myself think trigger warnings are a reasonable thing to require, provided they're used (as they are, for example, in this community) with regard to matters that are broadly known to be genuinely triggering (i.e., which produce PTSD symptoms such as flashbacks and panic attacks) . And that, I believe, is what cyberghostface was saying above.

The only problem is when you get people on Tumblr or FF.net or wherever insisting on trigger warnings for content that ( a ) merely makes someone uncomfortable ("The sight of bare feet grosses me out!"), as opposed to acutely distressed mentally and/or physically ("The sight of carnage gives me chest pains / headaches / insomnia / acute feelings of anxiety /etc." ) ; ( b ) isn't something reasonably foreseeable to cause PTSD-type symptoms ("The sight of paper clips gives me panic attacks!"); or both.

To sort of bring this back on topic, though, I suspect Ennis (given his general sociopolitical views) is in fact attacking the very idea of triggers and trigger warnings, and doing that is wrong, I think you and I can both agree on.

Re: Agreement on the above from a social worker

Date: 2017-06-18 07:51 pm (UTC)
mesmiranda: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mesmiranda
The only problem is when you get people on Tumblr or FF.net or wherever insisting on trigger warnings for content that ( a ) merely makes someone uncomfortable ("The sight of bare feet grosses me out!"), as opposed to acutely distressed mentally and/or physically ("The sight of carnage gives me chest pains / headaches / insomnia / acute feelings of anxiety /etc." ) ; ( b ) isn't something reasonably foreseeable to cause PTSD-type symptoms ("The sight of paper clips gives me panic attacks!"); or both.

I feel that. It's harder to foresee someone being triggered by bare feet or paper clips than it is from abuse or sexual assault. (I think someone on Tumblr proposed the use of 'squick' as a term for things in fanworks and discussions that make people uncomfortable/grossed out, as opposed to triggered, which makes sense.) But if someone came up to me and went, "Hey, I have an issue with bare feet, could you maybe throw a warning label on any pictures/discussion?"--for me, I have no problem with bare feet. But maybe bare feet was linked to physical abuse for them in some way. Or maybe they're just grossed out. I don't know, but if it makes them feel better or safer or whatever, even if I don't get it, it seems like a nice thing to do (and it takes seconds to put up a warning label or a tag).

I mean--to bring this into possible TMI territory--sometimes fat people get depicted on TV/in movies/in comics as lazy, slobby, gross, a joke, etc. I've struggled with my weight all my life. Sometimes I feel nothing. Sometimes I feel a little down or tired about it. Sometimes it puts me right back in grade school, where I got bullied pretty badly, and that's a bad time. I don't usually say anything, or ask for a warning or a label, but I have to admit: it really sucks. If someone else feels the same way, about something in their life, I'd rather they didn't if it can be helped.

To sort of bring this back on topic, though, I suspect Ennis (given his general sociopolitical views) is in fact attacking the very idea of triggers and trigger warnings, and doing that is wrong, I think you and I can both agree on.

100% definitely.
Edited Date: 2017-06-18 07:52 pm (UTC)

Re: Agreement on the above from a social worker

Date: 2017-06-19 12:01 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Counterpoint, though: past a certain number of non-obvious triggers (exercise, bare feet, salads, etc, etc, whatever), I'm not going to consistently tag them in the future. Like if I post an attractive picture, I'm not going to remember to scan through it and realize, oh, that guy's barefoot, better tag that. Sure, if someone speaks up and says, hey, can you tag this, it's a nice thing to do to comply, but it's also after the fact and severely diminishes its value as a warning. Especially so if I'm not going to do it consistently in the future.

I mean, I agree it would be convenient if every post was exhaustively tagged and you could pull up all available information on a certain subject with a single click, but that's just not happening. Even here, on scans_daily, people don't consistently tag their posts with all the characters and titles and themes and authors and artists and publishers and all relevant information, because it's actually pretty inconvenient to type out all the possible content tags for every post. So I agree it's a nice sentiment, but I don't see how it's useful or practical at all.

Re: Agreement on the above from a social worker

Date: 2017-06-19 02:48 pm (UTC)
mesmiranda: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mesmiranda
I know it's impossible to foresee every possible trigger, especially in a community with a lot of members. But if someone specific mentions that that they have this one thing (bare feet, off the top of my head), there should be an option to make a note of it somewhere--"oh yeah, he/she wants 'bare feet' tagged"--and tag appropriately. (I think Livejournal had a notes function way back when? That might have possibly been a thing? I honestly can't remember.)

Date: 2017-06-18 02:36 am (UTC)
mesmiranda: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mesmiranda
The obvious problem that even a layman understands immediately is that you don't overcome something by avoiding it. Therapy involves people talking about their problems, confronting them.

Yeah, in a controlled setting with a professional psychologist/therapist. You teach kids to swim with lessons and pool noodles and arm floaties, you don't throw them into the deep end and then make fun of them for flailing and inhaling water. "I'm doing this for your own good" is not better than "you're being really dumb about this".

Also, gently avoiding talking about spiders or salads is one thing; another thing is college staff bringing "coloring books, crayons, markers and colored pencils" for allegedly grown-up students to de-stress after Trump won the elections

You know what? People at my previous workplace were sitting around in complete misery after Trump won. There were open tears. Because all the stuff they supported, all the stuff they'd worked for for years, was about to be set back, if not outright erased. Because people there felt like they were in real danger. I can tell you this right now, I would've loved to have a colouring session instead of seeing my coworkers crying around the lunchroom table.

You want to talk about rape and violence and abuse, go ahead, knock yourself out. But you don't get to be the arbiter of other people's life experiences. You don't get to pick and choose which feelings are acceptable--at least not without coming across as an asshole. Nobody does. That's life, when you have basic empathy for other people.

(As a final note, "insanity gone mad"? Is that, like, extra-double-plus-crunchy insanity?)

Date: 2017-06-18 02:08 pm (UTC)
mrosa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrosa
Swimming lessons are not an apt comparison because children are not traumatized by swimming, or feeling incapable of coping with the idea of swimming; they're just ignorant of it. In fact if you let a child alone by the sea, he'll run into it whether he knows how to swim or not. That's why parents need to be vigilant.

Trigger warnings are to help people avoid things that, allegedly, they can't cope with because of emotional or psychological problems, because of some bad experience in the past. I understand the rationale, but that's not going to work because nobody can built a wall between himself and the world. Avoiding the problem is only delaying its solution. And what's even worse, to me, is that it makes others responsible for your own well-being, when that's your sole responsibility. It's just ridiculous having to think twice about what I'm going to say or write because of the residual probability that someone somewhere may be triggered by it.

As for Trump's victory, regrettable as that may be, it just goes to show how much the times have degenerated: in the 1960's activists and colege students bounced back from adversity and kept on fighting. In 2016 they piss and moan at the first inconvenience and then go play with coloring books, like children. I can just see those people having the stamina and willpower to change the world.

Finally, did you open the last link? It's not a question of me wanting to talk about rape and violence - although, why not? - the problem is that Law students, people who one day may have to stand in court in a case involving rape, can't cope with teachers discussing those topics in classes. Those students will leave college unprepared to deal with the real world. Don't you find that problematic?

Date: 2017-06-18 03:46 pm (UTC)
mesmiranda: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mesmiranda
Swimming lessons are not an apt comparison because children are not traumatized by swimming, or feeling incapable of coping with the idea of swimming; they're just ignorant of it. In fact if you let a child alone by the sea, he'll run into it whether he knows how to swim or not. That's why parents need to be vigilant.

My point is that we don't throw kids into deep water and, when they can't swim, shrug and go "well, that's your problem, not mine, you figure it out or you drown". We give kids lessons. We teach them how to tread water, how to float, how to swim a length. We make them better prepared to go into the water.

I understand that people with mental health issues are responsible for their own actions and how they interact with the world. I get it, honestly--I have a pretty bad anxiety disorder myself. But I wouldn't presume to take over someone else's 'treatment', so to speak, because I'm not in their shoes and I don't have their life experiences. If someone doesn't want to speak about rape or violence, because they don't feel like they're in the right mental spot, that's not my place to judge. I can continue the discussion elsewhere, or at another time, or in different terms.

Because that's the thing about trigger warnings and safe spaces--people are acting like it's some sort of 'free speech' issue, but the discussion can still continue. Nobody is having their speech curtailed. People are simply being the option to control how and when they confront it and how they deal with it, instead of having it flung in their faces and having to sit through a discussion, all while they relive their experience.

It's just ridiculous having to think twice about what I'm going to say or write because of the residual probability that someone somewhere may be triggered by it.

Do you... not take into consideration what other people might think when you say or write something? Is that not a thing that you do?

As for Trump's victory, regrettable as that may be, it just goes to show how much the times have degenerated: in the 1960's activists and colege students bounced back from adversity and kept on fighting. In 2016 they piss and moan at the first inconvenience and then go play with coloring books, like children. I can just see those people having the stamina and willpower to change the world.

a) People can cry, be upset, destress, and then go right back to fighting. This is a thing.
b) This is, in fact, a healthy thing to do.
c) The mentality of "suck it up, buttercup, people have real problems" surrounding mental health issues is persistent, pervasive and incredibly damaging. If somebody needs to vent or be angry, let them be angry. Let them vent.

Those students will leave college unprepared to deal with the real world. Don't you find that problematic?

I read your link. (That's about five or ten minutes of my life I could use back, but I read your link.) What I find problematic here is the use of 'the real world'. As in, "welp, sh*t happens, just the way it is". Why are we just accepting this, like there's nothing we can do about it? Why aren't we dealing with the situation instead blaming young people for having a reaction to it?

Date: 2017-06-16 09:07 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kd_the_movie
i laughed at the micro aggressor

Date: 2017-06-16 03:41 pm (UTC)
bradygirl_12: (cherry pie)
From: [personal profile] bradygirl_12
I couldn't help it, me, too. :)

Date: 2017-06-17 10:25 pm (UTC)
mrosa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrosa
Only a person with a rotten heart wouldn't laugh at it.

Date: 2017-06-16 10:03 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
Why, it's almost as though he's trying to one-up Nick Spencer in the run-up to the World Championships of Missing the Point.

Date: 2017-06-17 10:27 pm (UTC)
mrosa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrosa
Funny; the first thing I thought when I read the title was, "I bet Ennis wrote this..." And lo and behold!

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