Date: 2017-09-06 05:52 pm (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
The problem with people born in dystopian futures is they have no time to read any non-fiction. Because they don't read non-fiction they have no idea about any theories related to time travel and the possible problems there in.


Also good luck killing a member of the Justice League while the Justice League is at their prime. That is kinda a problem too.

Date: 2017-09-06 06:25 pm (UTC)
dcbanacek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dcbanacek
They'd have an easier time killing Superman, he at least has weaknesses to exploit. Wonder Woman? Not so much.

Date: 2017-09-06 09:51 pm (UTC)
joetuss: Ali (Default)
From: [personal profile] joetuss
His two major weaknesses aren't the most readily available,her's on the other hand are. If you're fast, and strong enough to go toe to toe with her, or just really good with a gun, you have a decent chance to stab, or shoot her to death. I don't know...imo, I'd be more worried about going against Supes...I can at least arm up ,and realistically prepare against WW.

Date: 2017-09-06 10:34 pm (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
We have very different definitions of "decent chance." I also get the impression with Diana's power-up in recent years that bullets or most any conventional weaponry wouldn't really be effective against her. She's probably considerably more vulnerable than Superman to a tac nuke (unless she can shield herself with her bracelets—during Hitch's first JLA run I got the impression she could do so against energy beams and explosions that couldn't be physically blocked by their surface area), but that's about all I can think of.

Date: 2017-09-06 10:58 pm (UTC)
deepspaceartist: Iron Man mark 43 (Default)
From: [personal profile] deepspaceartist
The fact that Wonder Woman still uses the bracers to block bullets and other attacks implies to me that she could still be hurt by them. Otherwise she has no real reason not to stand there and tank them like Superman does. She's certainly tougher and more resilient than most anyone else, yes, but something like a direct hit from a tank should still be something that can cause serious to life threatening injury. So the future League kids should still be reasonably capable of taking her down if it's just her vs all of them. (If the rest of the present League is there then the kids still lose, of course.)

Date: 2017-09-07 08:47 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
-The fact that Wonder Woman still uses the bracers to block bullets and other attacks implies to me that she could still be hurt by them.-

Eh, in all of Post-Crisis, bullet-wise she was notably injured by:
Devastation, who had titan-granted powers that make any weapon in her hands faster and more deadly. That's *it*.

A squad of people with advanced weaponry in JLA (the No Man's Land tie-in issue) shot her in the back and *annoyed* her, but did no damage, the next panel she had turned around and was blocking them with her shot-at back not bleeding or damaged.

Since the nu52, she's been hurt by, bullet wise... a bullet specifically designed to hurt high-level metas, and Eros's pistols. Again, that's it.


Think about what you mean by 'hurt.' Hurt does not mean seriously wound- being hit by a rubber band would hurt me in that it'd cause me main, but a thousand would not cause real pain.

Also she doesn't have super senses like Clark, if a bullet is headed her way, Diana can't tell whether it's normal or some ultra-alloy or enchanted until it connects. Better safe than sorry- I mean, unlike her, Clark has almost been killed by bullets, and she comes from a culture who enchants most of their weapons, so yea, there's plenty of reason to not stand there and tank, honestly Superman does so too often.

A tank shell? Causing serious to life threatening injury? Hah. She causes more impact than that by clapping. Diana's been in tons of explosions. Every fight she's had with Superman, Doomsday, Cheetah, Zoom, etc. shows she is too tough for that too. Power Girl literally punched her from DC to Canada. Doomsday's got blades on his fists and can definitely cause some nice bleeding, but

Gods with blades can cut her, but even then, blades often stick and don't get too deep- and they cut Superman too.

I've heard a lot of people pose your argument, but it's got the problem of assuming hurt means *serious* hurt, or even minor injury, when Wonder Woman take far more damaging attacks on a regular basis, and there's tactical advantages to blocking rather than tanking. It assumes way too much about what blocking implies about danger level, and ultimately her fights against high levels contradict it.

Date: 2017-09-07 06:34 pm (UTC)
joetuss: Ali (Default)
From: [personal profile] joetuss
-Unlike her, Clark has almost been killed by bullets-

When? Was he powerless at the time? Weakened by Kryptonite? Was he a pre-teen with burgeoning superpowers? Don't really think it counts, if it's under any of those circumstances.

DC has been mostly inconsistent with Wonder Woman's overall durability, but what they have been consistent with is the fact that she is vulnerable to man made (not just godly) piercing weapons, such as bullets, arrows, and knives.

Date: 2017-09-08 04:29 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
-
When? Was he powerless at the time? Weakened by Kryptonite? Was he a pre-teen with burgeoning superpowers? Don't really think it counts, if it's under any of those circumstances. -

Nope, he was at full power, the bullets themselves were simply kryptonite.

That's the thing- DC has bullets that can work against alpha-level supers. Treating bullets as harmless lead things you can ignore has gotten multiple high-level supers almost killed.

-DC has been mostly inconsistent with Wonder Woman's overall durability, but what they have been consistent with is the fact that she is vulnerable to man made (not just godly) piercing weapons, such as bullets, arrows, and knives.-

She's caught bladed spears bare-handed by the blade before. I can't recall a single time she's been wounded by any of those when they weren't magic/wielded by super strong foes, and even the above example was an enchanted spear, it's just the bladed edges apparently weren't enough to cut.

In The Circle storyline, Amazons shoot her with arrows- and when one of them penetrates, like, an inch, she mentally comments "The arrows! They're god-made!" This wasn't even a serious wound and enchanted was still the only explanation.

Her skin and flesh is moderately more vulnerable to piercing/slashing than other high-level supers, but the ones dealing the damage are still above human level, the damage still isn't *that* high, and the weapons are invariably at least made of super alloy, magic, or what have you.

A lot of her foes *are* super people who also have super blades of course, so it comes up on a regular basis, but a normal blade is about zero threat to her, and the ones who threaten her can usually deal damage to other invuln people too (Cheetah's claws cut Superman for example).

Heck, Genocide- who is literally made of her own body (from the future)- had WW's axe hit her shoulder, then at WW slam it deeper with both arms- and it got deeper in the shoulder, but that's it, it only gets a little deeper in a full-power strike. If she was really that vulnerable, that'd cleave her body in two. This same axe wielded by Diana also worked on false-Rao when the JSA was having trouble hurting him during New Krypton, and broke through Ares' helmet and killed him.

Here's a Green Lantern going spikey green fist on her. Letting him just wail interrupted leaves her looking like this, but she heals within minutes and that's the how much a spiked GL strength attack does.


It should also be noted that in Countdown to Infinite Crisis, Checkmate's files on a lot of super's stats was listed. Wonder Woman's toughness according to them? A-1, same rating as Superman. Apparently they don't think her higher propensity to take cuts counts as much as her ability to take A-1 strength to the face either.

Diana is really, really tough, can take top level attacks, and even with her piercing 'weakness' high level people with attacks that qualify are still just wounds and not insta-glibs, often not even very serious. That is also very consistent.
Edited Date: 2017-09-08 04:35 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-09-08 04:30 am (UTC)
joetuss: Ali (Default)
From: [personal profile] joetuss
...I stand corrected.

Date: 2017-09-06 08:10 pm (UTC)
burkeonthesly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] burkeonthesly
This annoyed me in the Star Trek reboot, too. "I've traveled time to change the past, but now that I'm here, screw it, I'll just assume the bad future is immutable and throw a tantrum." It's a cheap ploy to inject the bad kind of drama into a lackluster plot.

Date: 2017-09-06 09:24 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] locuatico
I thought the time travel part was unintentional

Date: 2017-09-06 10:27 pm (UTC)
burkeonthesly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] burkeonthesly

I was unclear about that. Nero seemed to vacillate between "I'm going to gut Starfleet so the Romulan empire can thrive" and "the future already happened, there's no fixing it" from scene to scene.

Date: 2017-09-06 11:04 pm (UTC)
deepspaceartist: Iron Man mark 43 (Default)
From: [personal profile] deepspaceartist
Nero's time travel was completely unintentional on his part, and happened because he attacked Spock while Spock was trying to stop the nova from causing further damage (NimoySpock says as much during his meld with PineKirk). As for Nero's wildly changing motives; I thought it was pretty clear that, given the fits of murderous rage and having seen his home planet go up in flames, that Nero was not the most mentally stable or rational person during the movie. So one should take his words with a grain of salt rather than holding him as an authority on time travel.

Date: 2017-09-07 12:00 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] locuatico
he was also a miner. not exactly the most adequate of labors to deal with time travel.
meteors maybe, but not time travel.

Date: 2017-09-07 08:51 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
In his case I think it's more, "I can change time by killing the Federation, but *my* family is still dead." His alterations might possibly allow an alternate them and him to be happy, but not him.

Or at least, that *should* be it, I don't know if it was so concrete.

That said, yea. The comic Doctor McNinja noted that the most successful time alternations tend to be ones who just sit down an explain the problems, and anyone going to a past better not flip-flop between.

Date: 2017-09-06 11:37 pm (UTC)
zapbiffpow: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zapbiffpow
"Also good luck killing a member of the Justice League while the Justice League is at their prime."

Oh, man, totally. Especially since this Superman is like the Level 99 / New Game Plus of superheroes right now.

Shame Wally's with the Titans! I'd have liked to see him and Supes 'listen here' these newbs.

Date: 2017-09-06 08:48 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
You'd think after all this time that conversation might've maybe been a big flashing neon sign going "WE'RE UP TO SOMETHING" for Clark.

I mean, if he's gotten to the point where he has to break out the "if you know anything about me, you know murder's not an option" bit, then he should really know it's probably going to end in punching.

Date: 2017-09-06 11:17 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] long_silence
Seriously why does the colorist keep giving Mera blonde hair and an orange costume on these covers?

Date: 2017-09-07 12:35 am (UTC)
joetuss: Ali (Default)
From: [personal profile] joetuss
We're not supposed to talk about that.

Date: 2017-09-07 08:52 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
"What if the war is with me?"

Then if you were actually informed about the subject of the war, you and your friends could do something about it ahead of time.

Date: 2017-09-07 11:07 pm (UTC)
deepspaceartist: Iron Man mark 43 (Default)
From: [personal profile] deepspaceartist
Maybe the future League is scared that, since future Diana obviously felt that whatever the subject of the war is was worth going to war for in the first place, present Diana will agree with her future self? Like they tell Diana why her future self did it and Diana responds with "oh yeah, I'd totally kill anyone over that".

Date: 2017-09-08 04:28 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
They could have the information revealed when the whole league is present just-in-case. At least make the conflict one in a location where it *won't* spiral out of control and cause a dystopia.

Reminds me...

Date: 2017-09-08 02:25 am (UTC)
silverzeo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverzeo
Huh... the talk of Jr Leaguers being jerks in a dark future, as well as Supes having a heart-to-heart to some "Superkid" with short hair, as well as mentioning Jon... wheres Conner Kent?

Last time I remember hearing about him, his past clone from the future switched places with him in the past, and Conner became an Alpha Centurion or whatever; while Past Clone from the future in present time pretended to be him and dealt with other hypertime Superboys till they all merge into one...

Re: Reminds me...

Date: 2017-09-08 12:47 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] long_silence
I don't think it was his past clone from the future exactly. iirc it was Jon Lane Kent (the potential future son of nu52 Superman and Lois) who died of illness as a child due to his unstable hybrid nature. He got brought back to life by the supervillain Harvest and did the whole Cable thing where he was sent even further into the future to be raised as his son. Except he was still unstable, which meant he got sick again. Harvest went back in time to before Jon Lane Kent would even be born, and created Kon as a clone of Jon to try to find a cure. Kon got replaced by Jon in the present, Kon had future and space adventures, they teamed up with they hypertime Superboys to fight an even more future Jon. Both Jons ended up dying and Kon went back to the present alone.

Kon rejoined the Lobdell Teen Titans and then Harvest showed up and wanted to take Kon back to the future because I guess he wanted his son back. Instead Kon flew full force into this wall and presumably killed himself rather than go back with Harvest.

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