Date: 2017-09-08 03:21 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
Ooh, surprising. Intrigued to see where this goes.

Date: 2017-09-08 11:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zarawesome.blogspot.com
With him skinning his face off so he looks like a... scarlet cranium of some sort.

Date: 2017-09-08 03:06 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
oh crap that would be creepy... for about a minute....

Date: 2017-09-08 05:08 am (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
I am surprised they are keeping the Hydra!Steve around, now I'm wondering if they are intent on building him up as I think there is still potential there by having him represent that darker side of USA.

Date: 2017-09-08 06:17 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
I hope this doesn't turn into "I'm what you could be if you'd man up a little and become the super-soldier Dr. Erskine wanted."

"Oh, Dr. Erskine wanted me to become a hyper-violent lunatic to everyone who disagreed with me?"

"Like you never felt like breaking Hawkeye's jaw when he called you an iced-over has-been."

Date: 2017-09-08 01:01 pm (UTC)
tsunamiwombat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tsunamiwombat
In fact i'm pretty sure Dr. Erskine told him the reason he was chosen was his good heard and gentle nature, since the serum would amplify any trait the dosed person had (hence why further experiments/attempts to replicate it tend to go very, very badly)

Date: 2017-09-08 03:09 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
it's why characters that were chosen SPECIFICALLY for their patriotism (rather than their hearts and gentle natures) kinda went kookoo, Even USAgent (who's considered one of the good ones). Fury and others have only had modified versions of it. but one could argue it augmented his spynature.

Steve isn't a patriot, or patriotic.... he fights for the spirit, rather than the letter, of American ideals. put another way, he didn't fight because it was the "patriotic thing to do" he fought because he saw bullies and knew bullies had to be stopped.
Edited Date: 2017-09-08 03:11 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-09-08 04:25 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
I disagree only with your definition of the word "patriot." Blind patriotism, perhaps, would be submissively following along with everything the country' leaders say, when they say it. But fighting for the spirit of your country's ideals seems close to the definition of true patriotism to me.

Date: 2017-09-08 05:01 pm (UTC)
michaelsaint: (Default)
From: [personal profile] michaelsaint
I also disagree with the way you define "patriot."

Blind patriotism or any form of cultural nationalism is very different than true patriotism.

Date: 2017-09-08 05:46 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
The "Streets of Poison" storyline had Steve saying how the serum made him strong and fast, but it didn't make him skilled and brave.

Date: 2017-09-08 10:09 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
I think USAgent got his powers from the Power Broker, not the Super Soldier Serum. Agent has basically just been flanderized.

There's been some of the John Walker Cap stuff posted here and I think Gruenwald, I believe that's his creator, was basically saying that conservatives ideals aren't good enough to fix some of the problems that need fixed in the world. Cause originally he seemed pretty well meaning, but when his sidekick Battlestar, who was black, was strung up on an undercover mission, and he wasn't willing to risk his ID so he ran to change into costume, leaving Battlestar to free himself

Date: 2017-09-08 07:02 am (UTC)
sarahnewlin: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sarahnewlin
So do both Caps know about what happened to Nat?

Date: 2017-09-08 01:03 pm (UTC)
tsunamiwombat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tsunamiwombat
I'm still confused as to what Hydra Cap's aim was. He seemed to be all about using extreme methods to do good things because he thought Hydra was for saving the world, or something. So why did he try to gather the five macguffins and start killing people? I mean it seems like his aims would have been something like Hydra's goals in The Winter Soldier

Date: 2017-09-08 02:19 pm (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
That is the problem isn't it. I have no clue what Hydra stands for other than "the strong rule" or whatever.

But what does that actually mean, wtf does Hydra especially Hydra!Cap actually want?

I feel like these are things we should know about any group being portrayed as fanatical believers.

Date: 2017-09-08 03:09 pm (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
He wants a fascist state because he feels stomping all over freedom and rights is the path towards stability. This was expounded on in several different comics.

He was trying to collect the macguffins because they'd allow him to re-write reality, an obviously useful tool in maintaining a fascist state. And he was killing people because they're resisting the fascist state.

Date: 2017-09-09 03:28 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
But his actions frequently prove that false, such as his blanket pardon of all civilian rebels, or his repeated offers of redemption to Rick Jones even though he knew Rick was disloyal to him. This belief in forgiveness - that people, if given a second chance, will do the 'right thing' - is fundamentally incompatible with Cap's supposed ideology. The only reason to stomp over freedom and rights is because you believe people will only do the right thing if they are forced to do so.

Date: 2017-09-09 04:46 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
Those early actions were portrayed as him wavering before deciding to really walk the walk, at which point he executes Rick and allows Las Vegas to be bombed because people there were harboring rebels.

Date: 2017-09-09 05:03 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
And yet he only resorts to these actions after being forced to do so, after his initial attempts have failed. If Rick had simply played along with him, he would've gone along with it indefinitely. He doesn't even order the bombing himself, he simply 'allows it to happen'.

This isn't him 'wavering'. This is him naturally acting in opposition his supposed beliefs. He has to be pressured into acting in accordance with Hydra ideology, rather than the other way around.

Date: 2017-09-09 07:36 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
He's Hydra Supreme Leader. No one's forcing him to do anything. He chooses to do it because he ultimately decides its the proper course.

And allowing the bombing to happen instead of ordering it is a semantic distinction here. He's actively placing the gun in a murderer's hand knowing full well what they intend to do with it -- indeed, putting it in their hand precisely because of the knowledge of what they're going to do.

Date: 2017-09-09 09:05 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
He is forced to change his plans because his initial plans don't work. Like I said, if Rick Jones had simply agreed to play along, Steve would have been happy to comply. Similarly, if his blanket pardon had indeed 'brought people back together' like he wanted, he would have been happy to continue with that sort of policy.

There's a stark difference between actively wanting something to happen, and simply allowing it to happen after your other options fail.

Date: 2017-09-09 09:48 pm (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
You say forced, but there's no ticking clock, no immediate problem that's only solved by Rick's death. He changes his plans because he decides the new plans would be more effective. And when one decides that upping the level of state oppression and violence is the superior path, well...

Plus, it's not like the old plans were devoid of fascism. We're talking a matter of different levels here, not absence/presence.
Edited Date: 2017-09-09 09:57 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-09-09 10:54 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Lol, dude, you're the one who said this to me the last time we had an argument about this topic:

He's looking for an excuse to not kill his friend, and he'll take what he can get. I mean, this obviously isn't the first conversation they've had since the Hydra takeover. He's already delayed Rick's execution three times, trying to buy time. He'll take what he can get at this point.

He's forced, because his plans aren't working, and the rest of the Hydra council is telling him his plans aren't working. They're telling him, 'hey, you pardoned all the civilian rebels and now the whole rebel movement's been emboldened, what are you going to do about it now, huh, dear leader?'

And they're right to be hassling him, because 'blanket pardons,' unconditional pardons, are completely contrary to fascist ideology. You cannot forgive unrepentant enemies in hopes of achieving reconciliation, while at the same time believing you must be strong and crush all your enemies. His beliefs are nonsensical.

Date: 2017-09-09 11:32 pm (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
Break that down. His plans aren't working. What are those plans in this scenario? To end the dissent. So what's his response, his solution to dissent? To up the level of state oppression and violence. I know what I'd call that.

You cannot forgive unrepentant enemies in hopes of achieving reconciliation, while at the same time believing you must be strong and crush all your enemies.

Of course, any who actually demonstrated unrepetence wouldn't be forgiven, which is the point.

Date: 2017-09-10 12:23 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Sure, let's break this down. Cap wants to end dissent and bring people together by unconditionally pardoning his enemies. He explicitly tells Rick that Rick can just lie to him and continue being unrepentant, and he'll still forgive him. And then when this doesn't work, he does a 180 and orders bombings and executions.

I'm not denying any of this happened; it's a fictional story, Nick Spencer can do anything he wants. I'm saying that the story doesn't make sense. If Cap is a fascist, why does he believe in pardons and reconciliation and forgiveness? If Cap believes in this stuff, why is he a fascist?

Date: 2017-09-10 10:16 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
You might as well ask who people who do believe in pardons and reconciliation and forgiveness don't forgive everyone. Cap gives Rick (and Sharon, as well) chances because of their past bonds. (Though there's nothing to say he'd pardon him if he pretended to repent. That was about calling off his execution, not a get-out-of-jail card.) In his eyes, they are good but misguided people, and he's seen that good firsthand, so he makes extra effort to convert them. And even then, that only gets them so far, as seen by Cap's eventual decision to execute both of them.

Date: 2017-09-10 10:55 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
He literally issues a blanket pardon to all civilian rebels, my dude. He actually forgives everyone.

But I'm not even talking about forgiving everyone. I'm saying, if someone believes is pardons and reconciliation and forgiveness, why would they jump to fascism and executions and mass murder when forgiveness doesn't work out?

Date: 2017-09-10 03:12 pm (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
Because he thinks there's a right time for the carrot and a right time for the stick.

He gives civilians a chance to join his side, and when they don't, out come the guns and violence.

In his own Cube-rewritten history, he himself was once, as he sees it, indoctrinated into American ideals and defied Hydra until he one day saw the light. So he's open to that possibility in others as well.

On some level, it's no doubt self-justification on his part, born out of his reluctance to actually follow his beliefs to their logical course -- the last vestiges of the compassionate person he once was -- and he himself comes to see that the contradiction cannot be maintained, at which point bombings and firing squads.

Date: 2017-09-09 07:05 pm (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
I mostly stayed far away from this steaming pile of an event from the outset based on the basic premise and Spencer's interactions with comics fans, but it did come to my attention that the Scarlet Witch was once again possessed by Chthon and acting as one of Cap's lackeys.

1) How the hell do you have Chthon taking possession of Wanda again as a minor side point rather than the crux of its own story? Everything going on in the way of HYDRA plans should have been immediately derailed in favor of "stop the elder demon god before it can scour humanity from the globe!"

2) Why the hell would Chthon play along with the plan? It regards human beings as some combination of vermin and food, it's not going to be taking marching orders from a flag-wrapped grasshopper that it would shortly be roasting as a snack.

3) Why the hell would Nazi Cap think it's a good idea to have something like that on board with his plans in the unlikely event it wasn't going to turn on him and gobble up everyone in the vicinity? Chthon approving of what he was doing should be a pretty solid indicator to anyone with a brain that it would only result in suffering and evil for all involved.

4) Various creators just got through spending years at digging Wanda out from under the "women can't handle vast power without going crazy/turning evil" pile of rubble she'd been buried beneath, and Spencer's going to undo that offhandedly for something that, so far as I can tell, added nothing to the story he was trying to tell? If I were James Robinson or Allan Heinberg, I'd hit Marvel with an it's-him-or-me ultimatum.
Edited Date: 2017-09-09 07:09 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-09-08 01:45 pm (UTC)
michaelsaint: (Default)
From: [personal profile] michaelsaint
OMG this is total crap. Marvel really needs a hard reset on everything Avengers and Captain America related.

What is the point to keeping Hydra!Cap around??? Is he supposed to be the new Red Skull or something? That storyline was done in like the 80s when Armin Zola cloned Steve and put the Red Skull's mind in one of the clones.

Date: 2017-09-08 03:02 pm (UTC)
byc: (Default)
From: [personal profile] byc
Marvel probably wants their own Superboy Prime/evil Superman type around.

Date: 2017-09-08 03:10 pm (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but couldn't they have just brought the Sentry back for that?

Date: 2017-09-08 05:04 pm (UTC)
michaelsaint: (Default)
From: [personal profile] michaelsaint
You make a really good point about Haydra!Cap being something similar to Superboy Prime.

It still doesn't make a lot of sense to me though. I think Superboy Prime was something of a low point for DC. I'm not sure why Marvel would want to do something similar.

Date: 2017-09-08 06:07 pm (UTC)
burkeonthesly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] burkeonthesly
Because it was a low point that sold comics, and that people are still talking about more than a decade later?

Date: 2017-09-08 08:11 pm (UTC)
michaelsaint: (Default)
From: [personal profile] michaelsaint
Was that really a decade ago?? Wow I am old.

It did sell comics but I think the novelty has sort of worn off.

Also, as I am writing this I realize Hydra!Cap will probably be a distant memory by the time the next Avengers movie comes out in less than a year.

Date: 2017-09-09 02:52 am (UTC)
burkeonthesly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] burkeonthesly

You're only as old as you feel--event fatigue notwithstanding.

I really hope that turd finally flushes. It's been stinking up the bowl far too long.

Date: 2017-09-08 06:03 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Remember when Spencer said that HydraCap was the real Cap and wouldn't be undone with the Cosmic Cube?

Date: 2017-09-08 10:38 pm (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
Well, he was the real Cap. The good Steve is a copy created from Kobik's memories of him.

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