Date: 2017-09-20 11:38 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] matrix_dragon
I have no idea what's going on, but I love Dicks summary of his thermal body armor. Bruce is such a dad it's amazing.

Date: 2017-09-20 02:33 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
It is a cute moment.

I recall a scene in one of Robin's old 1970's stories were someone in a snowstorm asks if he's cold, and he comments that he'd LIKE to make a comment about Bat-Thermal underwear, but no, he really IS freezing.

See also Batman '66's response to the sitution.

Date: 2017-09-20 12:02 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
Speaking of Freeze, whatever happened to his wife anyway? I seem to remember she was unfrozen a decade ago or so and even got superpowers, then... nothing. Total radio silence.

Date: 2017-09-20 02:16 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Last I heard in the New52 was the reveal that she was never his wife, she was a woman frozen decades ago who he obsessed over to the exclusion of anyone else, and convinced himself was his wife, thus turning the sincerely romantic/tragic, yet creepy obsession that BTAS introduced into a distorted vaguely-necrophiliac stalker fixation... so that happened.

Date: 2017-09-20 02:38 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray

Date: 2017-09-20 03:13 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] matrix_dragon
Nu52: We specialize in Getting It Wrong!

Date: 2017-09-20 03:58 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
It's really quite astonishing how proficient they are at making every possible wrong choice. If they threw a coin like Two-Face they'd be less likely to screw up.

Date: 2017-09-20 09:19 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
"Oh yeah, coin? You're not the boss of me!"

Date: 2017-09-22 02:31 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Reboot! Use new characters in front line positions? Nah (Godiva was the only newbie on a JL team). Recontextualize people or put B-listers in main teams to make them A listers? Not really (Cyborg and Martian Manhunter were the only two to move teams). So much missed opportunity!

Date: 2017-09-21 11:54 am (UTC)
ekrolo2: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ekrolo2
I like it just because they admit that Freeze is a piece of shit who's "sympathetic motivations" have absolutely no legs whatsoever for the long run. It always bothered me that Nora got kept on ice in perpetuity and yet they expected us to like Victor still?

Date: 2017-09-21 12:03 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I don't think it gained anything with the revision, and lost a lot.

Why make Victor someone who was always a piece of shit or actually mentally ill (If he's as delusional as it suggests he must have been)? What does it add to the story?

The original BTAS-inspired story had real emotion to it, Victor and Nora were a genuinely loving, ordinary couple, torn apart by tragedy. Victors actions were horrific, but inspired by his memory of a happy, normal life. Like many Batman's villains he had the proverbial "one bad day" and followed a darker path as a result, but it's possible to see, and to some extent empathise with him for doing so. That doesn't forgive any of his actions, but it adds context.

The New52 version has a mentally ill man descend into madness and he does horrible things because he's horrible, That's... not an improvement IMHO.

Date: 2017-09-21 12:06 pm (UTC)
ekrolo2: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ekrolo2
Because the entire story hinges on the sympathy angle for Victor and in an initial capacity it works well. Initially. After that? There's no sympathy to be gained for him or anything he does, especially since his plots and schemes become more and more vicious as time goes on yet the various writers kept hinging on you being sympathetic for him.

It doesn't work. The N52 version might take away the sympathy angle entirely but it doesn't try to have Freeze one up himself all the time while expecting us to feel pity for him. The TAS version has no legs, it's a recurring problem with the various bad guys there where Victor and Clayface specially get perfectly good send off points but because this is shit super hero fiction, they can't.

Date: 2017-09-21 01:31 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
There is always sympathy to be had for a character based on their motivations (Batman being an object lesson in that).

I don't see the New52 version as being an improvement as his entire personality is "I'm a delusional obsessive with cryo-tech who commits crimes because I'm a criminal and I can" which surely get's just as old just as quickly as the tragic version, but the tragic version at least adds some emotional resonance and drama to keep you interested.

I'd say the solution to the problem you cite is simple; to stop using him for more and more vicious crimes. It's a problem a lot of Bat-baddies have had over the past couple of decades at least. Use him for stories where his crimes have a purpose and resonance for him rather than causing chaos for the sake of it.

As an example, see the BTAS comic where Freeze breaks out of Arkham on Christmas Eve for unknown reasons, and when Batman does track him down he finds him at his wife's grave using his freeze tech to make it snow, because it's their anniversary and she always loved the snow. That's the extent of the story and the extent of his reason for breaking out, but it's a unique, touching one. He's motivated by grief, not evil per se. A backstory like that offers opportunities for many different stories to be told.

The New52 one might have dramatic legs, but I'd say they're very short ones that I'm not sure are long enough to reach the pedals for any length of time. :)

Date: 2017-09-21 01:44 pm (UTC)
ekrolo2: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ekrolo2
Diling back Freeze's murder sprees only solves part of the issue, the sympathy remains a finite thing. There are only so many times you can use it both as an excuse for him to do stuff before it gets repetitive. Soon, pet the puppy becomes beating a dead horse. I don't feel like it presents actual varied opportunities for story telling, just 50 shades of "Victor REALLY loves his wife!".

There's also the fact this is shit superhero fiction where nothing in the story matters and no one can advance in any tangible way that screws with him. Guys like Victor and Clayface shouldn't even be more then one off bad guys. It's insane for me to buy that Batman can't just use some magic bullshit from Zatanna or tech from Superman to fix either of them.

Or if that's a problem, why lock Freeze up in Arkham at all? Just have Batman work something out with Gordon so Freeze gets a lab to work and funding to pay for it through Bruce Wayne so he doesn't have to murder anyone or break their limbs off at any given opportunity.

But again, this is shit suphero fiction so we gotta force easy to solve problems over and over again instead of just, you know, resolving stuff. As any good story tends to do.

Date: 2017-09-20 01:01 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] capnduckman
So... this is last laugh, meets underworld unleashed?

Date: 2017-09-20 02:16 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Thank you, not just me who keeps thinking of Underworld Unleashed then!

Date: 2017-09-20 03:44 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Perez gagged Robin)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Now my affection for Robin's is fairly open thing;

Cute little Robin's scampering around being all heroic and adorable.

Appropriately older Robin's (and one in particular) getting into all sorts of scrapes and predicaments.

This though... Robin's as... a swarm of post-Lament-Configuration-exposure body-horror nightmares... I think even I draw the line at this.

Date: 2017-09-20 07:14 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: (ask the questions)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
really? i thought you had a thing for Zenobites too?

Date: 2017-09-20 11:41 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
In the same way I like chocolate, and I like Thai curry, but I would probably not be keen on a chocolate curry.

I like Cenobites in their place (Well, more I like the concept of the movie, the actual experiences of becoming a Cenobite I would want no truck with), but that place is not "having happened to Robins"

Date: 2017-09-20 03:46 pm (UTC)
thanekos: Lora, crafting. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
Nice ten-years-timeskip-facial-hair, cover!Nightwing.

(Seriously, nice.)

Date: 2017-09-21 10:03 am (UTC)
mesmiranda: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mesmiranda
I dunno, the look is giving me vague Kai Leng flashbacks.

(As a side note, do you think they'd still give that role to Troy Baker now that he's the ultramegahuge voice actor? Or at least rewrite it?)


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