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[team_leader.insanejournal.com]

Werewolves on the Moon Versus Vampires: Full Comic

Comments

[foxhack.insanejournal.com]

The comments on that page are ... um, scaring me.

[team_leader.insanejournal.com]

The title scared me.

[parsimonia.insanejournal.com]

You need to include at least one comic image in your post, as per the posting guidelines (http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/profile#POSTING%20GUIDELINES).

[team_leader.insanejournal.com]

Ooh. Okay, sorry. I read the bit about text link to off site and I thought this counted. I'll add an image.

[parsimonia.insanejournal.com]

Thanks.

[galateus.insanejournal.com]

Overwhelmingly meh. The werewolves are almost funny, at least.

[ashtoreth.insanejournal.com]

Alan Moore did this years ago.

[silverzeo.insanejournal.com]

Really? How was it?

[ashtoreth.insanejournal.com]

It was one of his one-page jokes, I think. Not scintillating, but mildly amusing.

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

Well, the concept is fairly ingenious, at any rate. Werewolves on the moon! Brilliant! However, A: I'm not wild about the fact that they're going up against vampires, AGAIN - seriously, why cant werewolves' mortal enemies be... hell, I dunno. Trolls, mermaids, centaurs - anything but vampires. It's been done to death. And B: I'm also not wild about the werewolves being slacker characters from a buddy movie. But still, the concept's good, and it might develop into something better.

Archenemy

[salad_barbarian.insanejournal.com]

How about werecats? The idea may not be as well know as wolf people but the idea of people who transform into panthers or lions isn't completely unknown in pop culture. Plus having two groups with animalistic-humanistic societies would be interesting. It could be great seeing how they interact with each other and regular humans provided it had a good writer. I think the people who did the Gargoyles TV show could pull it off.

Darn it now I'm all excited about this idea and I doubt it will ever come to be. :(

Re: Archenemy

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

Werecats could work, although to be a logical natural enemy for werewolves, they'd have to be the feline equivalent of wolves, which would be... hrrm. I was thinking lions, 'cause they're in prides and everything, but then again, there aren't any wolves in Africa, so maybe something more European/North American in flavor... Werelynxes? Werebobcats? Werepumas? Hell, I dunno.
What would REALLY be interesting, though, all that aside, would be if EVERY species had a were-equivalent, and they all had to deal with each other while keeping their true natures a secret from society as a whole. Think of the mix you'd get in your average American city, say, Chicago (I suppose it would usually be set in New York, but I'm sick of everything being set there) - werewolves, of course, would be the baseline species, but then you'd have the immigrants, weretigers from India, werelions and werecrocodiles from Africa, werebears from Russia and the Ukraine, werejaguars from south of the border, werealligators from New Orleans, etc. And then, of course, you'd have werecoyotes, who'd be out-of-towners looking to raise some hell in the big city, and species indigenous to cities in particular, such as wererats and werepigeons. A whole other society seething under the surface, and jostling for dominance - some would just want to live and let live, others would want to be in charge and stay in charge. The werebears would be like the Russian mafia, the werejaguars would be illegal immigrants, some of them, in the country looking for work and willing to fight to keep it; there could be traumatized African weres, shell-shocked ex-child soldiers from the wars in the Congo, ready to snap at a moment's notice; NOBODY, of course, would like the wererats... And just imagine the chaos on full moon nights. 'Were-Wars', we could call it! It'd be great!
Still excited?

Re: Archenemy

[salad_barbarian.insanejournal.com]

Well if i you're looking for a natural enemy for wolves I think bears would do it if the half remembered nature programs I used to watch as a kid are anything to go by.

If you are going to assign nationalities (for lack of a better term) I think werewolves should be Irish. Mostly because I heard the St. Patrick cast them out of Ireland and the story was later changed to snakes. But in the politically correct climate of today I would be very hesitant to identify certain groups with animals. For instance for years Bush was drawn as a monkey but various editorial cartoonists. Good luck getting away with that with Obama. Who would be the wererats?

I'm still excited but it seems like an idea that's very easy to screw up and difficult as hell to get right.

Re: Archenemy

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

The thing, though, is that wolves are indigenous to a number of different countries, including Europe and the US. That's why the werewolf legend is so prominent - it's also why I made them the most common type; they're the 'white bread' among weres. As for assigning nationalities, all of the examples I chose (except the rats and pigeons) are regional variations on werewolves. In Africa, stories are told about people who turn into crocodiles; in India, it's tigers, in Russia, bears, etc. Generally speaking, it's the most prominent predator in any given area. I'm not 'identifying certain groups with animals'; the groups themselves have already done that.
I'm not sure who the wererats, would be - Norwegians, maybe? That's where the most prominent breed of rats comes from. Anyway, at this point, they'd basically just be a subsection of homeless people who live in the subways and sewer tunnels. Werepigeons would likely be the same, only they'd be street people instead of tunnel dwellers.
And yes, by all means it'd be easy to screw up - but that's why it's exciting; the tricky ones are the ones that pay off in spades when they're gotten right.

Re: Archenemy

[salad_barbarian.insanejournal.com]

Not all of the werewolves have to be Irish. I just thought it would add an interesting pov for them. The older ones (depending on how long lived they are) would see themselves as exiles while the youth would be about as content as young people are to be anywhere. Also if you had them as being somewhat in charge then you could have some good "flashback" type stories of the immigrants becoming the establishment.

I was unaware that the examples you gave were already part of those cultures. The only were other than wolf that I had heard of was werepanthers from Africa. Adding in werecrocodiles and other culturally based African weres could be a good way to show that Africa isn't a mono-culture.

Picking up an idea you brought up earlier I think Chicago would be a great city for a setting. It's a major city with an iconic skyline as well as suburban and ghetto areas. I've been to some locations on the lakefront that I could easily see weres using to let themselves go a bit wild. Also the world seems focused on New York most of the time. All of the major American news companies are there so there wouldn't be as much leeway should a human see a werewolf or get a video of a wererat. Unless you want the knowledge of weres to be widely known in which case media attention wouldn't matter.

Re: Archenemy

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

I suppose there could be a werewolf equivalent of the Irish mob, although I think Boston or Philadelphia might be better for that. I'm not sure whether Chicago has much of an Irish element to it; I think it's more Germans and central Europeans there.
No, I don't think that weres should be widely known - I think it would be better if they stayed underground, given that they're all manifestations of various international shapeshifting bogeymen. There are some people who know the secret, but they keep it.

Re: Archenemy

[salad_barbarian.insanejournal.com]

Chicago has a lot of Irish influence, especially when it comes to politics. I don't know if you have ever heard of the "Daley machine" that was controlled by mostly Irish politicians and their mafia connections. Chicago also dyes the river green for St. Patrick's day and has a huge parade (it used to have two).

I agree keeping it a secret would be better story-wise since having them out in the open would have too much of an effect on the world. It's far too easy to get bogged down in the details of world building and lose sight of the story. Once you start getting into how weretigers impacted the British colonial system in India or werewolves influence on the Protestant Reformation you'll forget about character driven stories.

Re: Archenemy

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

*slaps forehead* Right, I forgot about all that. Whoops.
And you COULD actually do some 'how such-and-such affected history' stuff - you'd just have to keep it in the context of the real world. For example, the bit about weretigers and the British colonial system - you could have a story revolving around how certain weretigers were members of Thuggee cults going up against the colonialists, reports of which were dismissed by the top brass as panicked exaggeration due to the Thuggees' fearsome reputation. Maybe one of them could have stolen an important artifact which has been passed down to his grandson, who now lives in Chicago, etc.

Re: Archenemy

[salad_barbarian.insanejournal.com]

That's alright. There are some people (for instance most comicbook writers in need of a location) who forget the city exists. So not remembering some political history is a minor thing.

Something like that could work although it should be kept to a minimum. Too many reports and sightings and the general public as well as it's leaders start to look like idiots for not believing.

It would make for a good story as long as it wasn't magical. Make it an object of great religious or cultural significance but nothing "beyond" that. In my opinion the less extra ordinary situations the better. Have this world set just slightly different than our own. I'm not saying the weres should have a scientific basis (in point of fact I would prefer if their method of creation were kept a mystery) but I see magic as too much of a game changer if that makes any sense.

Re: Archenemy

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

I think what you mean, if I understand correctly, is that there should be MYSTICISM, but no actual magic. I agree - this is not a 'magic spell' sort of situation. Werewolves and other shapeshifters operate in a sort of in-between territory - their existence may be attributed to a sort of natural magic, but it's more the sort of deep, elemental, primal thing that wizards and so forth rarely care to exploit. It's possible that some wannabe magician might capture a were and try to use him or her as the basis of a spell - that's the sort of thing that might happen in real life - but either the were escapes before anything actually happens, or the spell goes horribly wrong is some manner that we don't actually see, but is heavily implied to be nastily messy. The implication being that in this world, there may well be magic, but it's not to be messed with if you don't know much about it.

Re: Archenemy

[salad_barbarian.insanejournal.com]

Pretty much. One of the things that annoys me about many modern interpretations of werewolves and vampires is that they are either caused by some sort of virus (which can be overcome by the power of SCIENCE!) or it's pure magic (and no one has to explain it). I'd rather it be kept a mystery/let the audience decide for themselves. So in addition to the occasional wannabe magician there could also be a renegade* scientist.
Having the spell or experiment go wrong off panel is a great idea. The best way to make the audience shudder from the horror of something going wrong is to let them imagine the horror for themselves.

*Renegade doesn't seem like the right word but "mad" seems even more wrong.

Re: Archenemy

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

A scientist who wants to make a name for himself by A: exposing weres to the world, and B: figuring out just how it works, you mean? Presumably through a combination of observation and dissection. Yeah, that could be interesting, all right.
And I agree, few things are more annoying than some smarty-pants writer trying to explain away creatures of ancient legend and folklore through the application of bad science. It carries 'there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for this' to the illogical extreme - any day now, I expect to come across a story where the Greek gods are revealed to be powerful robots or something.

Re: Archenemy

[salad_barbarian.insanejournal.com]

Yes, that exactly. He or she could be a very intriguing character when it comes to ethics. S/he could be a way of exploring issues like what it would mean to science to have humans as one of many sentient races (if you count the different weres as separate species).

Zeus: "Biteith mine shiny metal arse!"
If bad writing can make them robots it can make them speak ye old timey English.

Re: Archenemy

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

I'm not sure whether or not I'd class them as separate species. I mean, they're basically human for most of the time, except, of course, for the fact that they can transform into an animalistic form, which your average human cannot. I think the defining factor would probably be just how one becomes a were. The general way of spreading lycanthropy, of course, is through a bite - if you get bitten by a were, you will become a were yourself. This would not, however, account for the great amount of weres that would be the basis of the series, so let's say it works like this - lycanthropy may indeed be spread by a bite. Once there, however, it is an inherited trait - the children of the bitten were acquire it while still in the womb, and are born weres. This brings up identity issues - do the children consider themselves different species from the father or mother, or are they still the same species, just with an added trait? Is there a sort of were aristocracy, where families who have had lycanthropy passed down through the family line for generations sneer at the newly-minted weres who have just been turned, or their children? For that matter, what if it isn't always spread evenly - what if, for example, a werewolf has two sons, and one of them is born a full-fledged werewolf, while the other is a regular human? Would the human brother still consider himself a werewolf? Would he get along with his family? Would he disassociate themselves from them, and try to live like a 'normal' human? And if he decided that he wanted to 'convert' to being an actual werewolf, could he, also, acquire lycanthropy through a bite, or does he already HAVE lycanthropy, and it just doesn't work? Are there were clinics for this sort of thing? There's all sorts of interesting issues to be dealt with.

Re: Archenemy

[salad_barbarian.insanejournal.com]

So many great plot threads. Too bad I have no idea how to weave them all into the grand tapestry of a story that they deserve. You mention clinics. I think they would have to have their own medical centers and police forces as a matter of secrecy. Also what sort of traits would they have in human form? Would they be completely human? Would their human form only be skin deep?

I was thinking earlier about how best to describe the state of weres. My tired mind came up with Schroeder's werecat. They are in a position that is neither science nor magic. This doesn't have any effect on the story I just thought it was interesting to think about.

Re: Archenemy

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

They would almost certainly have their own hospitals, or at least ones with a were-sympathetic human in charge. I'm guessing that it would be very difficult to keep a baby were secret in a regular hospital - shapeshifting is probably something that you wouldn't have much control over during your early years. Baby weres would likely shift back and forth quite a bit, according to their moods - controlling this trait would be something that their parents would have to teach them, like potty-training, only more drastic. Young weres that have trouble controlling their shapeshiting would likely have much the same reputation as chronic bedwetters.
Basically, yes, I'd say that when they're human, they're completely human - otherwise, they'd have a really difficult time of fitting into normal human society. They'd probably have some sort of identifying mark - for example, one of the traditional ways of distinguishing a werewolf in his human form is really bushy eyebrows that merge together. Perhaps one of the signs of puberty for a young male were is not simply that he starts growing stubble; his eyebrows also start to grow together, and he has to shave the area between them. This would probably vary between different types of were - perhaps weretigers, for instance, have little facial hair except for a mustache-like pattern on either side of the lips that grows stiff and prickly, like a cat's whiskers. Teeth might also be a factor for some - werecrocodiles might have unusually large ones, for instance, and wererats, of course, would most likely have pronounced (and unusually pointy) buck teeth.
I'm not quite getting the reference to Shroeder's werecat.

Re: Archenemy

[salad_barbarian.insanejournal.com]

Are you familiar with Shroeder's cat?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

Basically until you observe the cat in the experiment it is both alive and dead. As it pertains to weres, their origin is both science and magic until someone observes how it is passed on. Does that make any sense? Granted quantum mechanics experienced on a macro level is a little brain breaking.

Re: Archenemy

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

I've heard of it, but I'm a bit of a dilettante when it comes to science, really - I stick around for the interesting bits, then leave when it gets into the technical aspects. My previous encounters with quantum physics/mechanics can basically be summed up as 'wait - so science has confirmed that there ARE alternate universes? COOL!'
I think what you're saying is that weres are kind of in-between creatures, as magic doesn't really explain them, and science denies that they COULD exist - therefore their existence, in this case, puts them in a separate category from either. Neither science nor magic really works as a method of explaining them; they contain aspects of each - so until one or the other explanation can be pushed forward, they are sci-magical, as it were. They don't have an explanation, they just ARE.

Re: Archenemy

[salad_barbarian.insanejournal.com]

Yes exactly. I'm not that great at explaining science. I wonder if there is a way to have them be aware of that sort of situation without it becoming too complicated?

Maybe have them afraid of losing their sci-magical status as an added motive for their secrecy. That way they would have a reason to stay hidden in an increasingly tolerant world. One of the things that gets me about the marvel universe is the way it treats mutants. The fact that there seems to have been no advancement of tolerance makes it a difficult world to relate to. With the added motivation of protecting this secret there could still be plenty of stories about intolerance but "racism" wouldn't have to become a crutch.

Re: Archenemy

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

I think a more concrete way of putting it would be that they're afraid of being rounded up and experimented on if their secret ever got out. As long as they remain semi-mythical creatures, then they have a fair amount of freedom - any isolated were sightings will likely be explained away as the result of drunkenness or mass hysteria - but if they are ever revealed as actual creatures living amongst us, then A: people will freak the hell out at having lived alongside monsters all this time, and B: they will be poked and prodded as scientific curiosities. (There would probably also be racial memories of the burnings of suspected werewolves that occurred in medieval Europe.) As long as regular society argues amongst itself as to whether weres ever existed at all, let alone whether they exist today, they can continue living in peace; if the argument is ever concluded in favor of the theory that yes, they do exist - boom. Goodbye peace. So in that sense, I think their sci-magical status would indeed be very precious to them.

Re: Archenemy

[salad_barbarian.insanejournal.com]

I just realized that we've been writing about this for five days give or take. Do you think there is a way to get this done? I'm not a very good writer but I'm tempted to try putting something together. Maybe I should do some research about weres in different cultures then come up with an outline of a world. We would need to fine tune it a bit before doing anything else.

Re: Archenemy

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

Hey, I'm up for it - why not? The first question, of course, is what form will this take?

Re: Archenemy

[salad_barbarian.insanejournal.com]

Well if I had my choice I'd say big budget, animated TV series on HBO (that way we don't have to worry about censoring any half-human nudity). But as much as I'd like to do this (and have money-fights were we throw handfuls of $100 bills at each other) I doubt it would work out.

A comic would be good but as little talent as I have for writing I have far far less for drawing. Writing can be improved by working together but I don't know what talent you might have for art.

I think a great way to go would be a series of written stories. Something like Hydrogen Guy. If you haven't heard of him: here is an archive of his stories (http://jim.unitedheroes.net/hguy//archive1s.html). This way we could publish a chapter at a time without worrying about putting out an entire novel.

Of course I'm planing this as though we have no professional help. I have no idea how to pitch an idea like this or who to pitch it to.

Re: Archenemy

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

I'm not sure I like the idea of doing it purely as an online thing. Sure, I find stuff like this enjoyable, but if there's a way that I might be PAID for doing an enjoyable thing, I'll leap on it. Speaking for myself, I'm strapped for cash, and acquiring at least some of said cash through a creative venture such as this one would be a lovely thing. Mind you, I'm not saying that we shouldn't do it, if that's the only option, but I think it would be wise to pursue other avenues first.
I have little talent for art - not realistic art, anyway; my artwork tends to be pretty cartoony, and while I've been told it's not bad, I think relative realism would the direction to go for this sort of project. Still, artists can be found on the web to handle stuff like this; there's a message board on DeviantArt for just this sort of situation. Mind you, I'm not saying that such a process is easy - I myself have been trying to break into the comics industry through my writing, and have been trying to find an artist to team up with - and one way or another, it largely hasn't worked (although I actually have been talking to this guy recently who I think might do the job). Still, there are plenty of avenues I haven't exhausted yet - craigslist, for instance - and if we can come up with a good script and pitch for a series, we might just be able to find someone who might help us out.
As it happens, I DO have access to professional help - kind of. It's very unofficial, but I actually have an agent, of sorts - that is to say, I'm in touch with this girl who has agreed to act as my agent, once I actually have some marketable work. I've met her, and she seems to know a good deal about publishing and so forth - she might be able to help us out here in terms of pitching our idea to someone.
In any case, this is probably not the best place to continue this discussion. I suggest we exchange E-mails, then talk about this some more.

Re: Archenemy

[salad_barbarian.insanejournal.com]

I could use some extra money myself. I was thinking along the lines of: hope we can get others involved but plan as though we had no help.
I was unsure where to go for such help but it sounds like you have some good ideas on where to start.
Ok I'm going to send an e-mail to the address listed in your IJ profile with the subject: The archenemy project. Lets see what we can put together.

[kosaginolegion.insanejournal.com]

Hmmm. I suspect that author I met at Confluence last month is going to be sadly disappointed when he finds out his plot idea was already thunked up by someone else.

(Am almost certain he wasn't one of the ones named above, too.)