[identity profile] starwolf_oakley.insanejournal.com posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Upon request from [insanejournal.com profile] wizardru, here's the CIVIL WAR scene of the Punisher killing two villains right in front of the Secret Avengers. Frank gets a pass on this, even though Cap beats him up and Frank feels he proved something to Cap nevertheless.



087- Civil War #6 - Page 12

Goldbug was a Luke Cage foe obsessed with gold. He also was part of the Bendis SECRET WAR series that never really caught on. The Plunderer was Ka-Zar's brother. However, he re-appeared in MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS #5–6 (March–April 2008), explaining the man who had died was his "American representative."

087- Civil War #6 - Page 13

What's worse: the Punisher killing these two or Captain America willingness to work with them?

087- Civil War #6 - Page 14

087- Civil War #6 - Page 15

An A+ parody of this scene and the rest of CIVIL WAR can be found here:
http://mightygodking.com/index.php/i-dont-need-your-civil-war/
Oddly, the parody seems to have a more in-character Spider-Man than the actual CIVIL WAR story.

Matt Fraction put his own twist on this in PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL #2 and #3.

090- Punisher War Journal V2 #2 - Page 20

090- Punisher War Journal V2 #2 - Page 22

It is unusual that no one else in the room, given their powers, can do *anything* to stop the Punisher.

090- Punisher War Journal V2 #2 - Page 23

The direct order seemed to be regarding lethal force. Of course, that non-lethal force had been against police officers.

I'll pause for a moment to reflect on a line said in a podcast reviewing CIVIL WAR #6. It was either a Marvel podcast or a Marvel-themed podcast, but I remember the line very well.

"Now, the Punisher's crazy. He's a killer. But he's not an idiot."

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 3

This is intercut with a flashback to Frank at boot camp, being asked by "Captain America" to hit him. Frank refuses. This is one of the "alternate" Caps, and probably the "Crazy Cap" from the 1950s.

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 4

The Punisher is deliberately provoking Captain America. I'm starting to question the "crazy, but not an idiot" idea.

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 5

"I got to doin'." As someone said in a review of this issue, Frank Castle isn't Mal Reynolds (from Firefly and Serenity).

Captain America wanted the Punisher on the team to do the dirty work? Well, it's pretty much the same reason they wanted Wolverine in the New Avengers, so it isn't that OOC. Meaning the Punisher is right, although I doubt Cap had "executing villains that want to help out" in mind.

Cap doesn't understand why the Punisher won't fight back. Perhaps a flashback might help:

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 9

Scenes of Frank Castle's earlier life often show that he had something wrong with him. It just wasn't "kill all criminals" wrong until his family was murdered.

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 10

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 11

So... the Punisher killed two super-villains and then let Captain America beat him up just to prove a point? Anyone know the point?

And none of the heroes do anything to stop the Punisher from LEAVING. I usually criticize Spider-Man for doing that, but this was a WHOLE ROOM of superheroes!

Date: 2009-08-14 03:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
Punisher is one of those characters whose very existance means crippling every other hero around. He's just a guy with guns fully willing to kill and if they want to keep him around they have to let him get away with it.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shanejayell.insanejournal.com
This is why I prefer Punisher under the MAX imprint. He's in his own seperate world with almost no superheroes.

Date: 2009-08-14 11:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dimesfornickels.wordpress.com (from insanejournal.com)
Totally agree.

I swear Ennis is the only one who really gets the character.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kagome654.insanejournal.com
Pretty much. The only one I don't mind seeing him up against is Daredevil, and only because they (potentially) contrast really well. Of course I'd still like to see Frank end up in jail following each and every encounter.

Date: 2009-08-14 05:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ashtoreth.insanejournal.com
Daredevil is generally Frank's antithesis, so they go at it like tooth and nail almost every time. And it's obvious that DD HATES Frank's actions. The times when they work together, it's VERY much because of a greater foe.

Date: 2009-08-14 06:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] proteus_lives.insanejournal.com
Ennis writes very good dialogue between Frank and Matt.

Date: 2009-08-14 06:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] blackdocs.insanejournal.com
Icon! hee-hee. Can't help hearing that Aquaman sound effect for DD's radar ^_^

Date: 2009-08-14 12:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tacobob.insanejournal.com
Well, you might as well use it for him. It's not like Aquaman's using it. :`( Sniff.

Date: 2009-08-14 04:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neuhallidae.insanejournal.com
Motto. He's basically a Story Breaker Power personified in this sort of comic, and really would be a better fit in a different universe.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Let's get this clear at the start: Frank is both the most unhinged and most rational Marvel "hero".

Frank has no real archenemies to fight, I mean he has Jigsaw but that's really it, this may seem like a small point but think about that. Guys like Cap and Spiderman always focus on the big flash supervillains, sure they may stop a bank job or a drug deal every now and then, but Frank deals with the dirty stuff.

On some level, I think the heroes realize that. They spout off about how wrong and evil his methods are, but they never fully turn him into a villain. He's fighting the fight they can't.

Frank deals with the child rapists, the men who turn women into slaves and sell them, he deals with the nastiest most soul searing things and he is the only person who can.

Why?

Because he's already broken. All the other heroes have familes or friends or a team to fall back on, Frank has nothing, he's a broken man with a single impossible mission he set himself on and he is the perfect man to fight the darkest depths of man's depravity because he's been both the victim and the actor in the cruelty of it all.

He let Cap beat him to show him that no matter how heroic you look you're still a person and still able to make shitty mistakes and shitty decisons. He knew he couldn't beat Cap, he just wanted to tell him to his face that he's making a bad call by using a villain

Date: 2009-08-14 03:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
So, basically Punisher does the stuff the police are supposed to be doing?

Date: 2009-08-14 03:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shanejayell.insanejournal.com
WEll, if the police used lethal force ALL THE TIME.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
Hey, look, the reason I'll never be rooting for Punisher.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Have you ever read the MAX series? It's seriously one of the best comics going right now. Pick up the "Slavers" trade.

Frank's never supposed to be teh guy you fully root for. He does awful things but on some base level you understand his actions. He's like Dexter in a way in that he has a code, but it's so mucked up in his own messed up ideas that it becomes hard to see.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
No.

Because I would derive no enjoyment froma series like that. I hate series like that. No Punisher title will ever be getting my money.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
I can understand that.

I'm really a flaming liberal, but on some base level The Punisher appeals to me because of the idea of simple taking vigalantism (which is really what Super Heroes are) to it's final conclusion.

Plus Ennis writes a fine comic

Date: 2009-08-14 03:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kagome654.insanejournal.com
Hear, hear! I don't read comics to see grisly revenge fantasies play out. More power to the people who like such things, but it's never going to appeal to me. Even the best written stories with Frank tend to leave me feeling cold.

Date: 2009-08-14 07:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tavella.insanejournal.com
Especially since they generally consist of creating cartoonishly evil villains for Frank to revenge-fantasy on and magically allowing him to be always right and never have accidental casualties no matter how much lead and explosives he throws around.

Now, superheroes often have the last quality of fantasy, in that people often toss around cars and the like without killing bystanders, but a) they don't do so as consistently -- there's generally some acknowledgement of casualties when the Avengers have big epic fights, while Frank supposedly has never ever ever killed a single innocent -- and b) it's at least in support of trying to save other lives, not enacting perverted revenge fantasies.

Date: 2009-08-14 11:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Cartoonishly evil? So, Doctor Doom is evil presented well while Slavers (which exist in reality) are just too much to even take seriously?

And Frank's never killed an innocent because he always goes into things knowing what he's gonna do. He doesn't fight in the streets with rocket launchers and he doesn't fight guys with particle rifles, he fights them with normal guns and does so in areas without any innocent bystanders, usually within the confines of the enemies' lair.

I'm sort of offened how you seem to be implying how people who enjoy the comic are enacting perveted revenge fantasies, like we masturbate over the book to the gore.

Date: 2009-08-14 02:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kagome654.insanejournal.com
I think it's a little silly that in a book that's supposed to be fairly down to earth and realistic Frank has NEVER killed an innocent civilian (are we sure he hasn't? I vaguely recall him angsting about something like that at one time or another, though I could be thinking of something else). Trained professionals have been known to clip some poor sap who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, I think it would be fair to assume the same thing might happen to Frank on occasion. Personally I think Frank brutally murdering an uncover police officer or something would make for a fairly compelling story. Even someone like Frank makes mistakes, and when you routinely use deadly force those mistakes are likely to have deeply regrettable consequences. It's a risk you take when your form of justice is irreversible.

Date: 2009-08-14 02:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kagome654.insanejournal.com
*uncover=undercover

Dur.

Date: 2009-08-14 02:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
They did do the murdering an Undercover cop in the Punisher WarZone movie. Too bad the acting was nightmarishly bad.

He did have a scare back in the Girls In White Dresses arc where he thought he killed a little girl in the crossfire. It was later proven to be another bad guy but he still angsted and nearly committed suicide.

Frank understands the risks he takes, but the reason MAX works so well is that it's more realistic than 616. The Punisher is the one Marvel character who only works well without other heroes. MAX is mainly realistic in the sense that super heroes don't exist, it still follows comic laws like the hero has great aim and the bad guys don't and so on.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lynxara.insanejournal.com
Well, really, the Punisher was created based on the old Bronson "Death Wish" movies from the 80's. Based on that, you have two possible ways for him to react to hurting a civilian:

1) He feels momentary regret, but the world is a hard place and he can't stop pursuing the greater good.

2) Frank is so driven by trauma to eradicate criminals that he's incapable of perceiving "civilians" once he gets his guns out. He will rationalize that everyone he shot had it coming somehow or another.

Date: 2009-08-14 09:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wizardru.insanejournal.com
FWIW, the Punisher first appeared in February 1974 in Amazing Spiderman, which was the same year that the first Death Wish came out....in JULY. So the Punisher actually pre-dates the movie by more than half a year (assuming at least a three month lead time for the comic).

Date: 2009-08-14 10:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lynxara.insanejournal.com
Well... I didn't want to get OCD about this, but yes, Punisher is actually based on the genre of men's adventure novels that gave rise to Death Wish.

Men's adventure has since utterly dried up as a publishing genre, so it's easier to explain the cultural zeitgeist that gave rise to Punisher by referencing Death Wish.

Date: 2009-08-14 10:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wizardru.insanejournal.com
I bow before your wisdom, sir. I didn't know that.

Date: 2009-08-14 11:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lynxara.insanejournal.com
If you're interested in exploring the whole men's adventure idea, the Mack Bolan (http://www.mackbolan.com/) series is a good place to start. Being conversant with this genre is especially interesting in light of Garth Ennis's work, as he seems to draw a lot of inspiration from it.

Most bookstores don't sell this stuff anymore but men's adventure tends to flood thrift stores and second-hand shops.

Date: 2009-08-15 12:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the_jeff.insanejournal.com
I read a fair amount of Mack Bolan and Phoenix Force novels in the 80s. It's easy to see the inspiration for the Punisher there, heck the old War Journal comics were so similar in tone it's close to plagerism.

Date: 2009-08-14 05:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foxhack.insanejournal.com
And yet... some people, like me, wish he was real.

Date: 2009-08-14 06:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] proteus_lives.insanejournal.com
That seems very narrow-minded.

Date: 2009-08-14 10:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
Seeing as I hate the very premise fo the chaarcter of course I'm not going to be open minded.

Date: 2009-08-14 11:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dimesfornickels.wordpress.com (from insanejournal.com)
Too bad. Garth Ennis' Punisher Max was some very well written crime noir.

Date: 2009-08-14 11:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
Which doesn't sound appealling to me at all. Doesn't matter how well written something is if I hate botyh the source and the genre.

Date: 2009-08-14 04:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] crinosg.insanejournal.com
I had an idea for a Punisher/Death Note crossover where Frank tracks down light, thinking he might someone who he may want to team up with, but after tracking him down he finds out what an insufferably smug prick and psycho he is, puts a bullet in his head, and takes the Death Note for himself.

Date: 2009-08-14 07:38 am (UTC)
ext_396790: (Default)
From: [identity profile] filthysize.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)
Frank wouldn't want to team up with Light to begin with, though. Frank hates people who kill, and he tortures himself in that regard for his own hypocrisy.

Ennis actually addressed that early in his run, where a group of murderous vigilantes call in Frank to be their leader, thinking he would approve of their work. Frank pretty much went, "Wrong. You're killers, end of story," and shot them all dead.

Date: 2009-08-14 12:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
To be fair, those guys we're even worse than Frank. One killed an innocent woman, one kills people who play loud music and let their dog's crap on the sidewalk, and the other was a completely insane priest who illed because of teh voices in his head.

Date: 2009-08-14 02:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wizardru.insanejournal.com
There was a point where Frank himself went that route, shooting people for Jaywalking and domestic fights. I also recall there was a time when he was using rubber bullets to fight crime, but that was in a less 'M' rated age of the 80s.

Date: 2009-08-14 10:33 pm (UTC)
ext_396464: (Default)
From: [identity profile] xdoop.insanejournal.com
Mister Payback only killed one innocent person, and it was an accident.

Date: 2009-08-14 10:36 pm (UTC)
ext_396464: ("Now you can't have any of my pot pie.")
From: [identity profile] xdoop.insanejournal.com
he finds out what an insufferably smug prick and psycho he is

Image (http://photobucket.com/images/pot%20calling%20the%20kettle%20black)

Date: 2009-08-14 03:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Or the jobs the cops won't touch like corruption.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:42 am (UTC)
ext_396464: (Default)
From: [identity profile] xdoop.insanejournal.com
Frank deals with the child rapists, the men who turn women into slaves and sell them, he deals with the nastiest most sour searing things and he is the only person who can

He also deals with goofy supervillains, like killing the Stilt Man and then blowing up the Bar With No Name where the other villains (people like the Gibbon and Princess Python) were paying their respects. Not to mention that if Puma and the Prowler (both superheroes) hadn't left beforehand, they'd have probably been blown up too.

He also shot one of his only friends, Microchip, in the head.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Well the Bar with no Name Incident solidfies the fact that Frank really gives no shit about the whole Super Villain thing. They're criminals and he deals the same thing he does to criminals.

Microchips death ties into that as well. Frank's world is VERY black and white most of the time. Micro had sold him out to gangsters. If we're talking the same thing (I assume you mean the MAx series) then Frank even gave Micro a chance to leave and not get killed.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:50 am (UTC)
ext_396464: (Default)
From: [identity profile] xdoop.insanejournal.com
So Frank goes after all criminals, regardless of the severity of their crime. You made it sound like he only went after the people who were really really evil.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Yeah that's what I was going for. I was implying that Frank generally goes after the street level stuff since he really has no arch villains of his own to go after.

Date: 2009-08-14 04:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neuhallidae.insanejournal.com
So, basically, anything you do to screw up, even if it's just having the wrong friends, whether you know their crimes or not, is a death penalty. That's really fucking comforting.

Date: 2009-08-14 05:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foxhack.insanejournal.com
Not really. He DOES draw the line somewhere. I'm not exactly where but I don't see him shooting at jaywalkers or people who litter anytime soon.

Well, except for that one story...

Date: 2009-08-14 12:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
MAX covers the line pretty well, he always goes after the big crimes, rape, murder, slavery and such. Drugs he goes after big as well, but that's mainly because it usually funds the other stuff. I don;t recall him ever blowing away some teen for selling pot either.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lynxara.insanejournal.com
He wouldn't kill anybody in Riverdale! Frank's not so bad, deep down.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
Problem with that is that supervillains can cause a lot more damage than normal criminals. Show you're willing to kill them and they'd crush him, But just like the heroes the villains get crippled to allow his existance.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:46 am (UTC)
kingrockwell: he's a sexy (Steve Rogers)
From: [personal profile] kingrockwell
Worth noting Cap never actually displayed a willingness to work with the villains, at last not in the first take. He doesn't get a chance, since Frank blasts them as soon as they're done talking, when Cap is still surprised they'd even show.

And I don't buy that SHRA would affect the villains more than the heroes, since a lot of them live as fugitives anyway if they're not in prison. Reformed supervillains, sure, but active ones?

Date: 2009-08-14 04:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lultam.insanejournal.com
With Civil War came the prison invented by Iron Man, Hank Pym and Reed (41 or 42 it was called, can't quite remember) in the negative zone which would have been a hell of a lot harder to get out of I'm guessing. But then again the raft was pretty daunting.

Meh, I guess at the end of the day we can blame the need for plot progression.

Date: 2009-08-14 04:29 am (UTC)
kingrockwell: he's a sexy (Steve Rogers)
From: [personal profile] kingrockwell
Having avoided Civil War like the plague, I'd forgotten all about that. If word on the Negative Zone prison was out at this point, I might see Steve allying himself with some villains (depending on where they stood on the Morality Scale) for the sake of due process.

Date: 2009-08-14 04:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lultam.insanejournal.com
Steve was pretty OOC for Civil War. The Civil War trade was the first comic I'd ever read and I loved it. I still think it's a great read if you don't know much about marvel's history, but a lot of characters were quite OOC now that I know them better.

At least McNiven's art is the greatest thing ever.

Date: 2009-08-14 05:13 am (UTC)
kingrockwell: he's a sexy (Steve Rogers)
From: [personal profile] kingrockwell
I didn't say "like a plague" for nothing. :/
Having grown up on Spider-Man and X-Men, it was pretty much the antithesis of everything Marvel'd ever taught me, and only the beginning of worse times for the MU.

And McNiven does nothing for me. Well, nothing good at least.

Date: 2009-08-14 04:17 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
positive comics week should include that scene where spidey and cap first meet on that rooftop and talk!...unless that's already posted here

Date: 2009-08-14 04:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neuhallidae.insanejournal.com
If you mean the "No, you move" speech, I think it went up as part of One Perfect Moment Week.

Date: 2009-08-14 06:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] proteus_lives.insanejournal.com
And you're welcome for that. ;)

Date: 2009-08-14 04:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mullon.insanejournal.com
I really doubt that getting his ass kicked was good for the of the men or the corps.

Date: 2009-08-14 05:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darkknightjrk.insanejournal.com
"So... the Punisher killed two super-villains and then let Captain America beat him up just to prove a point? Anyone know the point?"

I think PunisherMAX was on the right track--he was trying to show through inaction that he was the more rational person not to deal with criminals then Steve, who was beating up a guy who's hands aren't even up.

Date: 2009-08-14 06:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lbd_nytetrayn.insanejournal.com
Wow, isn't this kinda soon for a retcon? Maybe?

Or maybe it just feels that way.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

Date: 2009-08-14 06:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] proteus_lives.insanejournal.com
It's an interesting scene contrast. Frank is unstoppable unless you kill because he'll never stop.

If you haven't, check out Punisher BORN. For the fuckedness of Frank before the Punisher years.

Date: 2009-08-14 07:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 20thcenturyvole.insanejournal.com
Okay, so who read Castle saying "Punish me," and immediately thought of Cap dropping him down an elevator shaft?

... Just me, then? *whistles*

Date: 2009-08-14 03:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lynxara.insanejournal.com
I thought, "Oh, Frank, if only you could be comfortable and open with your own sexual impulses."

Date: 2009-08-16 04:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] old_blueeyes.insanejournal.com
*raises hand*

Date: 2009-08-14 11:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jlroberson.insanejournal.com
Far worse to kill in cold blood, and in the MU, that's not really an easy question--villains become heroes and back again a lot. It's more fluid and ambiguous, unlike the DCU where "good vs. evil" is more like a cosmology. So Cap working with them under these circumstances is not wrong, though he didn't look too keen on the idea anyway.

Also--Goldbug and the Plunderer? I can't imagine either of them did anything deserving that. Except maybe their choice of outfits.

The Punisher is not a hero, though he may do things that serve the cause of good. He's Batman if the heart had been taken right out of him, but with Vietnam experience and military training. Or Rorschach had he been a Marine once. Ennis got the character right because he wrote him as a man who knows his soul is dead. He also didn't treat him as a "hero." Nor "likeable", more like "interesting". And somewhat grotesque. He's that guy who stands at that point all "superheroes" try to stop short of. The best Punisher stories are ones that are chilling, rather than thrilling. At best, it seems to me, he should never seem cathartic, and should inspire, at best, mixed feelings. Otherwise he is a rather malignant character.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wizardru.insanejournal.com
The Punisher is, in many ways, an American version of Golgo 13. Except cross out 'emotionless' and write in 'guilt-ridden crazy'.

Date: 2009-08-14 02:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cmdr_zoom.insanejournal.com
"STOP FUCKING NARRATING!"

Date: 2009-08-14 03:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wizardru.insanejournal.com
First off, thanks for posting this.

Second off...wow, those are TWO very different accounts of the exact same event. The first one rings a lot more true for Cap than the second one.

Short list of villians in the Avengers that turned into heroes on Cap's Watch:

The Swordsman
The Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Hawkeye
Black Widow
Wonder Man
Black Widow
Sandman
The Vision

"He knows I WON." Huh?

Date: 2009-08-14 03:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lynxara.insanejournal.com
This kind of thing irritates me and you see it a lot in modern Marvel. A character does something in a "big" book that pisses off whoever writes the character in a "lower-tier" book, so the aggrieved writer gets permission from his editor to write a reaction to the offending scene.

What inevitably happens is that the offending scene is re-written in a way that ludicrously sentimentalizes the character. Either he gets ton of new dialog that exposits what he was really thinking, or the actual sequence of events is totally changed to make the character look better.

It's far more tedious reading than the writer just acknowledging that things happened the way the audience saw it the first time, then moving on express the character's POV on things in a manner that might be slightly more subtle than a brick to the face.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] buttler.insanejournal.com
The Punisher War Journal version of events reads more like the way the Punisher might rewrite it in his mind as he's walking away from what actually happened in the first version.

"And then I'd be all like, 'What about THIS, MR. Flag Man?' And then he'd say, 'Dag, you're right, soldier. I am hecka molded.' And he'd give me a medal -- which I'd toss back in his stupid face!"

Date: 2009-08-16 03:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lookingforsigns.insanejournal.com
That's exactly what I was thinking. Same scene, re-written to make the Punisher look really, really awesome.

Date: 2009-08-16 03:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lookingforsigns.insanejournal.com
(bah!)

And in such an over the top fashion it can barely be taken seriously.

Date: 2009-08-14 09:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wizardru.insanejournal.com
Also, can I just that I'm not sure whether I find it funny that MightyGodKing's parody of Civil War is so good, or that I think it's BETTER than the real thing. :)

Date: 2009-08-15 06:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] psychop_rex.insanejournal.com
I like the first version a lot better. It seems more in character for Frank to just casually blow someone away instead of milking the scene for a dramatic line - he's like 'yeah, I killed 'em - so what? They were crooks.' Also, it doesn't attempt to justify what he did - the latter version all but says outright 'ah, the others are wimps; Frank's the only REAL man in the room', which I find offensive.
And as for the 'what's worse' question, I would say Frank's blowing them away, definitely. I mean, it's not as simple as 'they're crooks, therefore evil' - the MU has a long history of crooks reforming and working on the side of the angels. Look at the Porcupine - he was a villain for pretty much his entire career, but he had a change of heart, died fighting the good fight, and now his armor is on display in Avengers Mansion, labeled as belonging to an 'honored foe'. Look at Baron Zemo - he was a modern=day NAZI, forcryin'outloud, and even he is more or less a good guy these days. Hell, look at this group here - Diamondback was a member of the Serpent Society, if I'm remembering correctly, but she's changed her spots, too.
Moreover, Cap's men themselves are criminals here - they're outlaws, defying a legal mandate. Goldbug and the Plunderer are low-level supercrooks offering help - they're not asking anything in return, they just want to help. Everyone's in the same basket here - blowing them away for being crooks is not only morally shaky and so forth, it's outrageously hypocritical.

Date: 2009-08-16 04:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] psychop_rex.insanejournal.com
Yes, but the Punisher story added a layer to the story that was neither helpful nor required. Sure, on some level Cap might wish that the crooks he busted stayed out of the way permanently, but that's not what the situation is about here. This isn't a gritty, no-mercy-for-scum-like-that sort of situation, it's a couple of possibly unsuitable individuals requesting to join Cap's team. The fact that Frank THOUGHT it was a gritty, no-mercy-for-scum-like-that situation is a pretty good indicator that he wasn't cut out for the team. What the Punisher story does is say that, no, it WAS a gritty, no-mercy-for-scum-like-that situation; it ALWAYS is - which, while a good synopsis of how Frank thinks, is somewhat pointless considering the circumstances. 'Civil War' is a story about superheroes against superheroes; there's no need to drag in criminal issues.

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