[identity profile] starwolf_oakley.insanejournal.com posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Upon request from [insanejournal.com profile] wizardru, here's the CIVIL WAR scene of the Punisher killing two villains right in front of the Secret Avengers. Frank gets a pass on this, even though Cap beats him up and Frank feels he proved something to Cap nevertheless.



087- Civil War #6 - Page 12

Goldbug was a Luke Cage foe obsessed with gold. He also was part of the Bendis SECRET WAR series that never really caught on. The Plunderer was Ka-Zar's brother. However, he re-appeared in MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS #5–6 (March–April 2008), explaining the man who had died was his "American representative."

087- Civil War #6 - Page 13

What's worse: the Punisher killing these two or Captain America willingness to work with them?

087- Civil War #6 - Page 14

087- Civil War #6 - Page 15

An A+ parody of this scene and the rest of CIVIL WAR can be found here:
http://mightygodking.com/index.php/i-dont-need-your-civil-war/
Oddly, the parody seems to have a more in-character Spider-Man than the actual CIVIL WAR story.

Matt Fraction put his own twist on this in PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL #2 and #3.

090- Punisher War Journal V2 #2 - Page 20

090- Punisher War Journal V2 #2 - Page 22

It is unusual that no one else in the room, given their powers, can do *anything* to stop the Punisher.

090- Punisher War Journal V2 #2 - Page 23

The direct order seemed to be regarding lethal force. Of course, that non-lethal force had been against police officers.

I'll pause for a moment to reflect on a line said in a podcast reviewing CIVIL WAR #6. It was either a Marvel podcast or a Marvel-themed podcast, but I remember the line very well.

"Now, the Punisher's crazy. He's a killer. But he's not an idiot."

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 3

This is intercut with a flashback to Frank at boot camp, being asked by "Captain America" to hit him. Frank refuses. This is one of the "alternate" Caps, and probably the "Crazy Cap" from the 1950s.

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 4

The Punisher is deliberately provoking Captain America. I'm starting to question the "crazy, but not an idiot" idea.

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 5

"I got to doin'." As someone said in a review of this issue, Frank Castle isn't Mal Reynolds (from Firefly and Serenity).

Captain America wanted the Punisher on the team to do the dirty work? Well, it's pretty much the same reason they wanted Wolverine in the New Avengers, so it isn't that OOC. Meaning the Punisher is right, although I doubt Cap had "executing villains that want to help out" in mind.

Cap doesn't understand why the Punisher won't fight back. Perhaps a flashback might help:

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 9

Scenes of Frank Castle's earlier life often show that he had something wrong with him. It just wasn't "kill all criminals" wrong until his family was murdered.

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 10

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 11

So... the Punisher killed two super-villains and then let Captain America beat him up just to prove a point? Anyone know the point?

And none of the heroes do anything to stop the Punisher from LEAVING. I usually criticize Spider-Man for doing that, but this was a WHOLE ROOM of superheroes!

Date: 2009-08-14 03:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Let's get this clear at the start: Frank is both the most unhinged and most rational Marvel "hero".

Frank has no real archenemies to fight, I mean he has Jigsaw but that's really it, this may seem like a small point but think about that. Guys like Cap and Spiderman always focus on the big flash supervillains, sure they may stop a bank job or a drug deal every now and then, but Frank deals with the dirty stuff.

On some level, I think the heroes realize that. They spout off about how wrong and evil his methods are, but they never fully turn him into a villain. He's fighting the fight they can't.

Frank deals with the child rapists, the men who turn women into slaves and sell them, he deals with the nastiest most soul searing things and he is the only person who can.

Why?

Because he's already broken. All the other heroes have familes or friends or a team to fall back on, Frank has nothing, he's a broken man with a single impossible mission he set himself on and he is the perfect man to fight the darkest depths of man's depravity because he's been both the victim and the actor in the cruelty of it all.

He let Cap beat him to show him that no matter how heroic you look you're still a person and still able to make shitty mistakes and shitty decisons. He knew he couldn't beat Cap, he just wanted to tell him to his face that he's making a bad call by using a villain

Date: 2009-08-14 03:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
So, basically Punisher does the stuff the police are supposed to be doing?

Date: 2009-08-14 03:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shanejayell.insanejournal.com
WEll, if the police used lethal force ALL THE TIME.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
Hey, look, the reason I'll never be rooting for Punisher.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Have you ever read the MAX series? It's seriously one of the best comics going right now. Pick up the "Slavers" trade.

Frank's never supposed to be teh guy you fully root for. He does awful things but on some base level you understand his actions. He's like Dexter in a way in that he has a code, but it's so mucked up in his own messed up ideas that it becomes hard to see.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
No.

Because I would derive no enjoyment froma series like that. I hate series like that. No Punisher title will ever be getting my money.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
I can understand that.

I'm really a flaming liberal, but on some base level The Punisher appeals to me because of the idea of simple taking vigalantism (which is really what Super Heroes are) to it's final conclusion.

Plus Ennis writes a fine comic

Date: 2009-08-14 03:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kagome654.insanejournal.com
Hear, hear! I don't read comics to see grisly revenge fantasies play out. More power to the people who like such things, but it's never going to appeal to me. Even the best written stories with Frank tend to leave me feeling cold.

Date: 2009-08-14 07:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tavella.insanejournal.com
Especially since they generally consist of creating cartoonishly evil villains for Frank to revenge-fantasy on and magically allowing him to be always right and never have accidental casualties no matter how much lead and explosives he throws around.

Now, superheroes often have the last quality of fantasy, in that people often toss around cars and the like without killing bystanders, but a) they don't do so as consistently -- there's generally some acknowledgement of casualties when the Avengers have big epic fights, while Frank supposedly has never ever ever killed a single innocent -- and b) it's at least in support of trying to save other lives, not enacting perverted revenge fantasies.

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Date: 2009-08-14 05:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foxhack.insanejournal.com
And yet... some people, like me, wish he was real.

Date: 2009-08-14 06:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] proteus_lives.insanejournal.com
That seems very narrow-minded.

Date: 2009-08-14 10:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
Seeing as I hate the very premise fo the chaarcter of course I'm not going to be open minded.

Date: 2009-08-14 11:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dimesfornickels.wordpress.com (from insanejournal.com)
Too bad. Garth Ennis' Punisher Max was some very well written crime noir.

Date: 2009-08-14 11:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
Which doesn't sound appealling to me at all. Doesn't matter how well written something is if I hate botyh the source and the genre.

Date: 2009-08-14 04:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] crinosg.insanejournal.com
I had an idea for a Punisher/Death Note crossover where Frank tracks down light, thinking he might someone who he may want to team up with, but after tracking him down he finds out what an insufferably smug prick and psycho he is, puts a bullet in his head, and takes the Death Note for himself.

Date: 2009-08-14 07:38 am (UTC)
ext_396790: (Default)
From: [identity profile] filthysize.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)
Frank wouldn't want to team up with Light to begin with, though. Frank hates people who kill, and he tortures himself in that regard for his own hypocrisy.

Ennis actually addressed that early in his run, where a group of murderous vigilantes call in Frank to be their leader, thinking he would approve of their work. Frank pretty much went, "Wrong. You're killers, end of story," and shot them all dead.

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Date: 2009-08-14 10:36 pm (UTC)
ext_396464: ("Now you can't have any of my pot pie.")
From: [identity profile] xdoop.insanejournal.com
he finds out what an insufferably smug prick and psycho he is

Image (http://photobucket.com/images/pot%20calling%20the%20kettle%20black)

Date: 2009-08-14 03:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Or the jobs the cops won't touch like corruption.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:42 am (UTC)
ext_396464: (Default)
From: [identity profile] xdoop.insanejournal.com
Frank deals with the child rapists, the men who turn women into slaves and sell them, he deals with the nastiest most sour searing things and he is the only person who can

He also deals with goofy supervillains, like killing the Stilt Man and then blowing up the Bar With No Name where the other villains (people like the Gibbon and Princess Python) were paying their respects. Not to mention that if Puma and the Prowler (both superheroes) hadn't left beforehand, they'd have probably been blown up too.

He also shot one of his only friends, Microchip, in the head.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Well the Bar with no Name Incident solidfies the fact that Frank really gives no shit about the whole Super Villain thing. They're criminals and he deals the same thing he does to criminals.

Microchips death ties into that as well. Frank's world is VERY black and white most of the time. Micro had sold him out to gangsters. If we're talking the same thing (I assume you mean the MAx series) then Frank even gave Micro a chance to leave and not get killed.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:50 am (UTC)
ext_396464: (Default)
From: [identity profile] xdoop.insanejournal.com
So Frank goes after all criminals, regardless of the severity of their crime. You made it sound like he only went after the people who were really really evil.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Yeah that's what I was going for. I was implying that Frank generally goes after the street level stuff since he really has no arch villains of his own to go after.

Date: 2009-08-14 04:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neuhallidae.insanejournal.com
So, basically, anything you do to screw up, even if it's just having the wrong friends, whether you know their crimes or not, is a death penalty. That's really fucking comforting.

Date: 2009-08-14 05:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foxhack.insanejournal.com
Not really. He DOES draw the line somewhere. I'm not exactly where but I don't see him shooting at jaywalkers or people who litter anytime soon.

Well, except for that one story...

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Date: 2009-08-14 03:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
Problem with that is that supervillains can cause a lot more damage than normal criminals. Show you're willing to kill them and they'd crush him, But just like the heroes the villains get crippled to allow his existance.

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