[identity profile] starwolf_oakley.insanejournal.com posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Upon request from [insanejournal.com profile] wizardru, here's the CIVIL WAR scene of the Punisher killing two villains right in front of the Secret Avengers. Frank gets a pass on this, even though Cap beats him up and Frank feels he proved something to Cap nevertheless.

087- Civil War #6 - Page 12

Goldbug was a Luke Cage foe obsessed with gold. He also was part of the Bendis SECRET WAR series that never really caught on. The Plunderer was Ka-Zar's brother. However, he re-appeared in MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS #5–6 (March–April 2008), explaining the man who had died was his "American representative."

087- Civil War #6 - Page 13

What's worse: the Punisher killing these two or Captain America willingness to work with them?

087- Civil War #6 - Page 14

087- Civil War #6 - Page 15

An A+ parody of this scene and the rest of CIVIL WAR can be found here:
Oddly, the parody seems to have a more in-character Spider-Man than the actual CIVIL WAR story.

Matt Fraction put his own twist on this in PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL #2 and #3.

090- Punisher War Journal V2 #2 - Page 20

090- Punisher War Journal V2 #2 - Page 22

It is unusual that no one else in the room, given their powers, can do *anything* to stop the Punisher.

090- Punisher War Journal V2 #2 - Page 23

The direct order seemed to be regarding lethal force. Of course, that non-lethal force had been against police officers.

I'll pause for a moment to reflect on a line said in a podcast reviewing CIVIL WAR #6. It was either a Marvel podcast or a Marvel-themed podcast, but I remember the line very well.

"Now, the Punisher's crazy. He's a killer. But he's not an idiot."

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 3

This is intercut with a flashback to Frank at boot camp, being asked by "Captain America" to hit him. Frank refuses. This is one of the "alternate" Caps, and probably the "Crazy Cap" from the 1950s.

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 4

The Punisher is deliberately provoking Captain America. I'm starting to question the "crazy, but not an idiot" idea.

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 5

"I got to doin'." As someone said in a review of this issue, Frank Castle isn't Mal Reynolds (from Firefly and Serenity).

Captain America wanted the Punisher on the team to do the dirty work? Well, it's pretty much the same reason they wanted Wolverine in the New Avengers, so it isn't that OOC. Meaning the Punisher is right, although I doubt Cap had "executing villains that want to help out" in mind.

Cap doesn't understand why the Punisher won't fight back. Perhaps a flashback might help:

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 9

Scenes of Frank Castle's earlier life often show that he had something wrong with him. It just wasn't "kill all criminals" wrong until his family was murdered.

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 10

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 11

So... the Punisher killed two super-villains and then let Captain America beat him up just to prove a point? Anyone know the point?

And none of the heroes do anything to stop the Punisher from LEAVING. I usually criticize Spider-Man for doing that, but this was a WHOLE ROOM of superheroes!

Date: 2009-08-14 03:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shanejayell.insanejournal.com
WEll, if the police used lethal force ALL THE TIME.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
Hey, look, the reason I'll never be rooting for Punisher.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Have you ever read the MAX series? It's seriously one of the best comics going right now. Pick up the "Slavers" trade.

Frank's never supposed to be teh guy you fully root for. He does awful things but on some base level you understand his actions. He's like Dexter in a way in that he has a code, but it's so mucked up in his own messed up ideas that it becomes hard to see.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com

Because I would derive no enjoyment froma series like that. I hate series like that. No Punisher title will ever be getting my money.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
I can understand that.

I'm really a flaming liberal, but on some base level The Punisher appeals to me because of the idea of simple taking vigalantism (which is really what Super Heroes are) to it's final conclusion.

Plus Ennis writes a fine comic

Date: 2009-08-14 03:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kagome654.insanejournal.com
Hear, hear! I don't read comics to see grisly revenge fantasies play out. More power to the people who like such things, but it's never going to appeal to me. Even the best written stories with Frank tend to leave me feeling cold.

Date: 2009-08-14 07:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tavella.insanejournal.com
Especially since they generally consist of creating cartoonishly evil villains for Frank to revenge-fantasy on and magically allowing him to be always right and never have accidental casualties no matter how much lead and explosives he throws around.

Now, superheroes often have the last quality of fantasy, in that people often toss around cars and the like without killing bystanders, but a) they don't do so as consistently -- there's generally some acknowledgement of casualties when the Avengers have big epic fights, while Frank supposedly has never ever ever killed a single innocent -- and b) it's at least in support of trying to save other lives, not enacting perverted revenge fantasies.

Date: 2009-08-14 11:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Cartoonishly evil? So, Doctor Doom is evil presented well while Slavers (which exist in reality) are just too much to even take seriously?

And Frank's never killed an innocent because he always goes into things knowing what he's gonna do. He doesn't fight in the streets with rocket launchers and he doesn't fight guys with particle rifles, he fights them with normal guns and does so in areas without any innocent bystanders, usually within the confines of the enemies' lair.

I'm sort of offened how you seem to be implying how people who enjoy the comic are enacting perveted revenge fantasies, like we masturbate over the book to the gore.

Date: 2009-08-14 02:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kagome654.insanejournal.com
I think it's a little silly that in a book that's supposed to be fairly down to earth and realistic Frank has NEVER killed an innocent civilian (are we sure he hasn't? I vaguely recall him angsting about something like that at one time or another, though I could be thinking of something else). Trained professionals have been known to clip some poor sap who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, I think it would be fair to assume the same thing might happen to Frank on occasion. Personally I think Frank brutally murdering an uncover police officer or something would make for a fairly compelling story. Even someone like Frank makes mistakes, and when you routinely use deadly force those mistakes are likely to have deeply regrettable consequences. It's a risk you take when your form of justice is irreversible.

Date: 2009-08-14 02:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kagome654.insanejournal.com


Date: 2009-08-14 02:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
They did do the murdering an Undercover cop in the Punisher WarZone movie. Too bad the acting was nightmarishly bad.

He did have a scare back in the Girls In White Dresses arc where he thought he killed a little girl in the crossfire. It was later proven to be another bad guy but he still angsted and nearly committed suicide.

Frank understands the risks he takes, but the reason MAX works so well is that it's more realistic than 616. The Punisher is the one Marvel character who only works well without other heroes. MAX is mainly realistic in the sense that super heroes don't exist, it still follows comic laws like the hero has great aim and the bad guys don't and so on.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lynxara.insanejournal.com
Well, really, the Punisher was created based on the old Bronson "Death Wish" movies from the 80's. Based on that, you have two possible ways for him to react to hurting a civilian:

1) He feels momentary regret, but the world is a hard place and he can't stop pursuing the greater good.

2) Frank is so driven by trauma to eradicate criminals that he's incapable of perceiving "civilians" once he gets his guns out. He will rationalize that everyone he shot had it coming somehow or another.

Date: 2009-08-14 09:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wizardru.insanejournal.com
FWIW, the Punisher first appeared in February 1974 in Amazing Spiderman, which was the same year that the first Death Wish came out....in JULY. So the Punisher actually pre-dates the movie by more than half a year (assuming at least a three month lead time for the comic).

Date: 2009-08-14 10:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lynxara.insanejournal.com
Well... I didn't want to get OCD about this, but yes, Punisher is actually based on the genre of men's adventure novels that gave rise to Death Wish.

Men's adventure has since utterly dried up as a publishing genre, so it's easier to explain the cultural zeitgeist that gave rise to Punisher by referencing Death Wish.

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From: [identity profile] wizardru.insanejournal.com - Date: 2009-08-14 10:57 pm (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] lynxara.insanejournal.com - Date: 2009-08-14 11:09 pm (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] the_jeff.insanejournal.com - Date: 2009-08-15 12:44 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-08-14 05:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foxhack.insanejournal.com
And yet... some people, like me, wish he was real.

Date: 2009-08-14 06:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] proteus_lives.insanejournal.com
That seems very narrow-minded.

Date: 2009-08-14 10:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
Seeing as I hate the very premise fo the chaarcter of course I'm not going to be open minded.

Date: 2009-08-14 11:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dimesfornickels.wordpress.com (from insanejournal.com)
Too bad. Garth Ennis' Punisher Max was some very well written crime noir.

Date: 2009-08-14 11:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
Which doesn't sound appealling to me at all. Doesn't matter how well written something is if I hate botyh the source and the genre.

Date: 2009-08-14 04:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] crinosg.insanejournal.com
I had an idea for a Punisher/Death Note crossover where Frank tracks down light, thinking he might someone who he may want to team up with, but after tracking him down he finds out what an insufferably smug prick and psycho he is, puts a bullet in his head, and takes the Death Note for himself.

Date: 2009-08-14 07:38 am (UTC)
ext_396790: (Default)
From: [identity profile] filthysize.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)
Frank wouldn't want to team up with Light to begin with, though. Frank hates people who kill, and he tortures himself in that regard for his own hypocrisy.

Ennis actually addressed that early in his run, where a group of murderous vigilantes call in Frank to be their leader, thinking he would approve of their work. Frank pretty much went, "Wrong. You're killers, end of story," and shot them all dead.

Date: 2009-08-14 12:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
To be fair, those guys we're even worse than Frank. One killed an innocent woman, one kills people who play loud music and let their dog's crap on the sidewalk, and the other was a completely insane priest who illed because of teh voices in his head.

Date: 2009-08-14 02:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wizardru.insanejournal.com
There was a point where Frank himself went that route, shooting people for Jaywalking and domestic fights. I also recall there was a time when he was using rubber bullets to fight crime, but that was in a less 'M' rated age of the 80s.

Date: 2009-08-14 10:33 pm (UTC)
ext_396464: (Default)
From: [identity profile] xdoop.insanejournal.com
Mister Payback only killed one innocent person, and it was an accident.

Date: 2009-08-14 10:36 pm (UTC)
ext_396464: ("Now you can't have any of my pot pie.")
From: [identity profile] xdoop.insanejournal.com
he finds out what an insufferably smug prick and psycho he is

Image (http://photobucket.com/images/pot%20calling%20the%20kettle%20black)


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