[identity profile] starwolf_oakley.insanejournal.com posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Upon request from [insanejournal.com profile] wizardru, here's the CIVIL WAR scene of the Punisher killing two villains right in front of the Secret Avengers. Frank gets a pass on this, even though Cap beats him up and Frank feels he proved something to Cap nevertheless.

087- Civil War #6 - Page 12

Goldbug was a Luke Cage foe obsessed with gold. He also was part of the Bendis SECRET WAR series that never really caught on. The Plunderer was Ka-Zar's brother. However, he re-appeared in MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS #5–6 (March–April 2008), explaining the man who had died was his "American representative."

087- Civil War #6 - Page 13

What's worse: the Punisher killing these two or Captain America willingness to work with them?

087- Civil War #6 - Page 14

087- Civil War #6 - Page 15

An A+ parody of this scene and the rest of CIVIL WAR can be found here:
Oddly, the parody seems to have a more in-character Spider-Man than the actual CIVIL WAR story.

Matt Fraction put his own twist on this in PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL #2 and #3.

090- Punisher War Journal V2 #2 - Page 20

090- Punisher War Journal V2 #2 - Page 22

It is unusual that no one else in the room, given their powers, can do *anything* to stop the Punisher.

090- Punisher War Journal V2 #2 - Page 23

The direct order seemed to be regarding lethal force. Of course, that non-lethal force had been against police officers.

I'll pause for a moment to reflect on a line said in a podcast reviewing CIVIL WAR #6. It was either a Marvel podcast or a Marvel-themed podcast, but I remember the line very well.

"Now, the Punisher's crazy. He's a killer. But he's not an idiot."

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 3

This is intercut with a flashback to Frank at boot camp, being asked by "Captain America" to hit him. Frank refuses. This is one of the "alternate" Caps, and probably the "Crazy Cap" from the 1950s.

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 4

The Punisher is deliberately provoking Captain America. I'm starting to question the "crazy, but not an idiot" idea.

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 5

"I got to doin'." As someone said in a review of this issue, Frank Castle isn't Mal Reynolds (from Firefly and Serenity).

Captain America wanted the Punisher on the team to do the dirty work? Well, it's pretty much the same reason they wanted Wolverine in the New Avengers, so it isn't that OOC. Meaning the Punisher is right, although I doubt Cap had "executing villains that want to help out" in mind.

Cap doesn't understand why the Punisher won't fight back. Perhaps a flashback might help:

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 9

Scenes of Frank Castle's earlier life often show that he had something wrong with him. It just wasn't "kill all criminals" wrong until his family was murdered.

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 10

091- Punisher War Journal V2 #3 - Page 11

So... the Punisher killed two super-villains and then let Captain America beat him up just to prove a point? Anyone know the point?

And none of the heroes do anything to stop the Punisher from LEAVING. I usually criticize Spider-Man for doing that, but this was a WHOLE ROOM of superheroes!
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Date: 2009-08-14 03:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
Punisher is one of those characters whose very existance means crippling every other hero around. He's just a guy with guns fully willing to kill and if they want to keep him around they have to let him get away with it.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Let's get this clear at the start: Frank is both the most unhinged and most rational Marvel "hero".

Frank has no real archenemies to fight, I mean he has Jigsaw but that's really it, this may seem like a small point but think about that. Guys like Cap and Spiderman always focus on the big flash supervillains, sure they may stop a bank job or a drug deal every now and then, but Frank deals with the dirty stuff.

On some level, I think the heroes realize that. They spout off about how wrong and evil his methods are, but they never fully turn him into a villain. He's fighting the fight they can't.

Frank deals with the child rapists, the men who turn women into slaves and sell them, he deals with the nastiest most soul searing things and he is the only person who can.


Because he's already broken. All the other heroes have familes or friends or a team to fall back on, Frank has nothing, he's a broken man with a single impossible mission he set himself on and he is the perfect man to fight the darkest depths of man's depravity because he's been both the victim and the actor in the cruelty of it all.

He let Cap beat him to show him that no matter how heroic you look you're still a person and still able to make shitty mistakes and shitty decisons. He knew he couldn't beat Cap, he just wanted to tell him to his face that he's making a bad call by using a villain

Date: 2009-08-14 03:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
So, basically Punisher does the stuff the police are supposed to be doing?

Date: 2009-08-14 03:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shanejayell.insanejournal.com
WEll, if the police used lethal force ALL THE TIME.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Or the jobs the cops won't touch like corruption.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
Hey, look, the reason I'll never be rooting for Punisher.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shanejayell.insanejournal.com
This is why I prefer Punisher under the MAX imprint. He's in his own seperate world with almost no superheroes.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:42 am (UTC)
ext_396464: (Default)
From: [identity profile] xdoop.insanejournal.com
Frank deals with the child rapists, the men who turn women into slaves and sell them, he deals with the nastiest most sour searing things and he is the only person who can

He also deals with goofy supervillains, like killing the Stilt Man and then blowing up the Bar With No Name where the other villains (people like the Gibbon and Princess Python) were paying their respects. Not to mention that if Puma and the Prowler (both superheroes) hadn't left beforehand, they'd have probably been blown up too.

He also shot one of his only friends, Microchip, in the head.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Have you ever read the MAX series? It's seriously one of the best comics going right now. Pick up the "Slavers" trade.

Frank's never supposed to be teh guy you fully root for. He does awful things but on some base level you understand his actions. He's like Dexter in a way in that he has a code, but it's so mucked up in his own messed up ideas that it becomes hard to see.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com

Because I would derive no enjoyment froma series like that. I hate series like that. No Punisher title will ever be getting my money.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:46 am (UTC)
kingrockwell: he's a sexy (Steve Rogers)
From: [personal profile] kingrockwell
Worth noting Cap never actually displayed a willingness to work with the villains, at last not in the first take. He doesn't get a chance, since Frank blasts them as soon as they're done talking, when Cap is still surprised they'd even show.

And I don't buy that SHRA would affect the villains more than the heroes, since a lot of them live as fugitives anyway if they're not in prison. Reformed supervillains, sure, but active ones?

Date: 2009-08-14 03:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Well the Bar with no Name Incident solidfies the fact that Frank really gives no shit about the whole Super Villain thing. They're criminals and he deals the same thing he does to criminals.

Microchips death ties into that as well. Frank's world is VERY black and white most of the time. Micro had sold him out to gangsters. If we're talking the same thing (I assume you mean the MAx series) then Frank even gave Micro a chance to leave and not get killed.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kagome654.insanejournal.com
Pretty much. The only one I don't mind seeing him up against is Daredevil, and only because they (potentially) contrast really well. Of course I'd still like to see Frank end up in jail following each and every encounter.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
I can understand that.

I'm really a flaming liberal, but on some base level The Punisher appeals to me because of the idea of simple taking vigalantism (which is really what Super Heroes are) to it's final conclusion.

Plus Ennis writes a fine comic

Date: 2009-08-14 03:50 am (UTC)
ext_396464: (Default)
From: [identity profile] xdoop.insanejournal.com
So Frank goes after all criminals, regardless of the severity of their crime. You made it sound like he only went after the people who were really really evil.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timemonkey.insanejournal.com
Problem with that is that supervillains can cause a lot more damage than normal criminals. Show you're willing to kill them and they'd crush him, But just like the heroes the villains get crippled to allow his existance.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kagome654.insanejournal.com
Hear, hear! I don't read comics to see grisly revenge fantasies play out. More power to the people who like such things, but it's never going to appeal to me. Even the best written stories with Frank tend to leave me feeling cold.

Date: 2009-08-14 03:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] punishermax.insanejournal.com
Yeah that's what I was going for. I was implying that Frank generally goes after the street level stuff since he really has no arch villains of his own to go after.

Date: 2009-08-14 04:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lultam.insanejournal.com
With Civil War came the prison invented by Iron Man, Hank Pym and Reed (41 or 42 it was called, can't quite remember) in the negative zone which would have been a hell of a lot harder to get out of I'm guessing. But then again the raft was pretty daunting.

Meh, I guess at the end of the day we can blame the need for plot progression.

Date: 2009-08-14 04:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neuhallidae.insanejournal.com
Motto. He's basically a Story Breaker Power personified in this sort of comic, and really would be a better fit in a different universe.

Date: 2009-08-14 04:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neuhallidae.insanejournal.com
So, basically, anything you do to screw up, even if it's just having the wrong friends, whether you know their crimes or not, is a death penalty. That's really fucking comforting.

Date: 2009-08-14 04:17 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
positive comics week should include that scene where spidey and cap first meet on that rooftop and talk!...unless that's already posted here

Date: 2009-08-14 04:29 am (UTC)
kingrockwell: he's a sexy (Steve Rogers)
From: [personal profile] kingrockwell
Having avoided Civil War like the plague, I'd forgotten all about that. If word on the Negative Zone prison was out at this point, I might see Steve allying himself with some villains (depending on where they stood on the Morality Scale) for the sake of due process.

Date: 2009-08-14 04:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lultam.insanejournal.com
Steve was pretty OOC for Civil War. The Civil War trade was the first comic I'd ever read and I loved it. I still think it's a great read if you don't know much about marvel's history, but a lot of characters were quite OOC now that I know them better.

At least McNiven's art is the greatest thing ever.
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